Difference between revisions of "History:SG5 Disaster Relief"

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'''Subject''': ''These are the plans to solve the major problem of [[Style Guideline|StyleGuideline]] 5 ([[Featuring Artist Style|FeaturingArtistStyle]]) which are to be implemented in the short term. So we are not completly [[Getting Rid Of Featuring Artist Style|GettingRidOfFeaturingArtistStyle]]. In the medium term it can be made more acceptable via interface changes like the [[Artist Page Redesign|ArtistPageRedesign]]. A more detailed solution should come along with the [[Next Generation Schema|NextGenerationSchema]] in the long term.''  
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'''Subject''': ''These are the steps to solve the major problem of [[Style Guideline|StyleGuideline]] 5 ([[Featuring Artist Style|FeaturingArtistStyle]]) which has been implemented in the [http://blog.musicbrainz.org/archives/2006/01/server_updated_2.html 2006-01-08 Server Update]. We are not completly [[Getting Rid Of Featuring Artist Style|GettingRidOfFeaturingArtistStyle]]. In the medium term it can be made more acceptable via interface changes like the [[Artist Page Redesign|ArtistPageRedesign]]. A more detailed solution should come along with the [[Next Generation Schema|NextGenerationSchema]] in the long term.''  
  
The plans are as follows:  
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The changes are as follows:
# Allow albums with various artists on the tracks but which are attributed to one artist to be moved to this artist.  
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# Allow releases with various [[Track Artist|TrackArtist]]s but which are attributed to one artist to be moved to this [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]].  
# Change the [[Style Guideline|StyleGuideline]] like this: "If two or more primary artists perform on a track, create a collaboration artist for them and attach the track to it." ''Note, that the use of "feat." will still be valid for guest performing artists.''
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# Change the text of the [[Featuring Artist Style|FeaturingArtistStyle]] to state: "If two or more ''equally primary'' artists perform on a track, create a collaboration artist for them and attach the track to it. This has been done. See the [[History Of Featuring Artist Style|HistoryOfFeaturingArtistStyle]] for the old guideline.  
  
==Code changes==
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''Note, that the use of "feat." is still valid for guest performing artists.''
  
The first part requires code changes such that:
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===HowTo===
* The album listing will no longer list albums which have a track of the current artist on them and [[Album Artist|AlbumArtist]] == [[Various Artists|VariousArtists]] but list albums which have a track of the current artist on them and [[Album Artist|AlbumArtist]] != the current artist.
 
* When listing tracks of an album, the [[Track Artist|TrackArtist]]<code><nowiki></nowiki></code>s will only be shown if one or more tracks have a [[Track Artist|TrackArtist]] != [[Album Artist|AlbumArtist]].
 
* Albums which have [[Various Artists|VariousArtists]] as [[Album Artist|AlbumArtist]] (that is which are [[Various Artist Album|VariousArtistAlbum]]<code><nowiki></nowiki></code>s currently) get a "Move" link which allows moving them to a [[Single Artist|SingleArtist]].
 
* Probably we have to adjust the tagger libs a bit for this.
 
  
The code changes will be open for testing on the test server before being released. Also the changes will be further announced (especially important for the customers).  
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<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">[http://musicbrainz.org/artist/0383dadf-2a4e-4d10-a46a-e9e041da8eb3.html Queen] and [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/5441c29d-3602-4898-b1a1-b77fa23b8e50.html David Bowie] are main artists of the track ''Under Pressure'' on the Queen release [http://musicbrainz.org/album/24a355b3-940d-4428-b54d-d830fb5766f6.html Hot Space]. The changes that need to be done to reflect this situation while keeping the [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] Queen are as follows:
 +
# Click on '''Show artists'''
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# Click on '''(Change)''' for the track artist of ''Under Pressure''.  
 +
# Change the track artist to "Queen & David Bowie"
  
==Examples==
 
 
* The Queen albums which are attributed to Queen on the cover and have all tracks by Queen except one which is by "Queen & David Bowie" are changed in the following way:
 
*# Convert the album to [[Various Artists|VariousArtists]]
 
*# Change the [[Track Artist|TrackArtist]] of the one track to a newly created collaboration "Queen & David Bowie"
 
*# Move the album to the artist Queen
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">
 
{| border="1"
 
|-
 
|  [[Image:Alert.png]] ''You have to un-check "Move Tracks to Album Artist", such that only the Album Artist is affected by the Move, but not the Tracks.''
 
|}
 
 
</ul>
 
</ul>
This is a bit work but the result should be acceptable for everyone. ;)
 
* The album [http://musicbrainz.org/album/495652e1-d9b7-40c5-8490-10a87b91dba6.html The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring] is nearly completly by Howard Shore except the last track which is by Enya. You could move the album to Howard Shore. This would have the following consequences:
 
** The album appears in the discography of Howard Shore (in one of the main sections).
 
** The album appears in one of the VA sections of Enya.
 
** When looking at the album you see Howard Shore above it and the correct artist listed for every track.
 
  
* The double album [http://musicbrainz.org/newsearch.html?search=The+K%26D+Sessions&table=album The K&D Sessions] is added again and again to the artist [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/6b49dc39-cb6f-465f-980b-bc17a271da34.html Kruder & Dorfmeister] because they remixed it and so it is attributed to them. You could move it to this artist and it would appear under their albums - but the remixed tracks still show the original artists.
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===Release Examples===
  
==Editing==
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* The release [http://musicbrainz.org/album/495652e1-d9b7-40c5-8490-10a87b91dba6.html The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring] is nearly completly by Howard Shore except the last track which is by Enya. You could move the release to Howard Shore. This would have the following consequences:
 +
** The release appears in the discography of Howard Shore (in one of the main sections).
 +
** The release appears in one of the VA sections of Enya.
 +
** When looking at the release you see Howard Shore above it and the correct artist listed for every track.
  
As you can see in some cases you'd need several atomic edits until you are where you want to be with an album (convert to VA, change track artist, move to SA). Therefore it's recommended to add notes with exhaustive explanations to the edits and links to each other. Also as some of the changes do not appear under subscribable artists you might want to tell people to vote on those changes if you are not an [[Auto Moderator|AutoModerator]] so that they won't fail and you can go on with the work on it.  
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* The double release [http://musicbrainz.org/newsearch.html?search=The+K%26D+Sessions&table=album The K&D Sessions] is added again and again to the artist [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/6b49dc39-cb6f-465f-980b-bc17a271da34.html Kruder & Dorfmeister] because they remixed it and so it is attributed to them. You could move it to this artist and it would appear under their releases - but the remixed tracks still show the original artists.  
  
==Discussion==
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==Code changes==
  
How does a compilation with a track by Pearl Jam & Cypress Hill ([http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=306208 http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=306208]) be handled? This collaboration artist only appears twice, both times on a 'real' Various Artists release. At the moment '''and''' after this relief has been implemented those 2 releases won't show up under either Pearl Jam or Cypress Hill. --[[User:Zout|Zout]]
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The implemented changes (released on 2006-01-08): <dl><dt>Artist page shows releases with
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Yes that is correct. There will, however, be an [[Advanced Relationship|AdvancedRelationship]] that states that both Pearl Jam and Cypress Hill collaborated on "Pearl Jam & Cypress Hill". These [[Advanced Relationship Type|AdvancedRelationshipType]]<code><nowiki></nowiki></code>s will be presented more prominently in the upcoming [[Artist Page Redesign|ArtistPageRedesign]]. --[[User:DonRedman|DonRedman]]
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<dd>
</ul>
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So in effect the [[Featuring Artist Style Alternative|FeaturingArtistStyleAlternative]] I made "official" and lasted for a day will be applied, with the extension of the [[Album Artist|AlbumArtist]]? This looks great! When will this go live on the test server, you think? --[[User:Zout|Zout]]
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[[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] == current artist ''or''
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Actually, it is already live! (on test of course) ;-) --[[G0llum]]
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</ul>
 
  
----
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one or more tracks with [[Track Artist|TrackArtist]] == current artist (only shown, if 1 didn't match)
 +
<dt>Release page
 +
<dd>
 +
  
I've got two (minor) issues with the implementation:
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Track artists are shown when at leat one track artist is different than the release artist.  
# When moving a VA release to a [[Album Artist|AlbumArtist]], there is the option "Move Tracks to Album Artist", which actually is the same as "Convert to single artist". I suggest removing this option, as it is counter-intuitive. Instead of the check box, there can be a text saying something like "If you want all tracks to be by the same artist, you need to Convert to single artist instead".  
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# There seem to be two listings for 'Compilation' after moving a VA release to an artist (e.g. Queen). At least, yesterday. Has this been fixed in the mean time? Great!
 
  
--[[User:Zout|Zout]]  
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[[Various Artists Release|VariousArtistsRelease]]s and [[Multiple Artists Release|MultipleArtistsRelease]]s have a '''Move''' link which allows moving them to a different release artist.
----
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If I understand correctly, the [[Album Artist|AlbumArtist]] on a release is set for releases that are e.g. Greatest Hits by a single artist, but that have one or more tracks on it that are collaborations or maybe by a member of the group. Also, for DJ-Mixes, the DJ Mixer should be the 'main artist'. Should be, at the same time, forbid the use of '(Mixed by ...)' in [[Release Title|ReleaseTitle]]<code><nowiki></nowiki></code>s? This can now be captured by adding a DJ-Mix AR and changing the 'main' artist. Any more cases? -[[User:Zout|Zout]]
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[[Single Artist Release|SingleArtistRelease]]s have a new '''Show Artists''' link that reveals the track artists in the display and allows changing them. (Changing one or more artists automatically "transforms" the release into a [[Various Artists|VariousArtists]] release.  
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">I'd say DJ-mixes should be regular VA albums, not under DJ as a main artist. --[[Lu Kz|LuKz]]
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<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">The plan was, to use the artist on the cover, meaning if a DJ releases a DJ-Mix CD under his name, then his name is used as main artist for the release. On the other hand, if the CD is just a VA-DJ-Mix and the Mix-DJ is only mentioned in the liner notes, then of course he is not the main artist. This should reduce the number of "gray-zone-releases" that you can't explicitly select an artist or VA as main artist for. (Can someone give examples of typical DJ-Mix albums?--[[User:Fuchs|Fuchs]]
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">For typical DJ-Mix albums take a look at [http://www.discogs.com/artist/Sasha+%26+John+Digweed Sasha & John Digweed]'s releases, also the DE9 series of [http://www.discogs.com/artist/Richie+Hawtin Richie Hawtin] --[[User:Schika|Schika]]
 
</ul>
 
</ul>I agree with [[Lu Kz|LuKz]], I suggest to list the AR (DJ-Mixed, Remixed track, Production...) under the album list. The same way as on [http://www.discogs.com/artist/Kruder+%26+Dorfmeister discogs]  --[[User:Schika|Schika]] 
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Well, your proposition contradicts what [[Lu Kz|LuKz]] said above. I concur with [[User:Fuchs|Fuchs]], that we are gradually shifting our focus to be more accurate, and therefore need to write what's on the cover. Actually, we used Kruder & Dorfmeister as an actual example why we need album artists for albums, which can have different track artists. Of course, they did much more than compile the albums - unlike compilation mix artists who do nothing more than selecting and x-fading the tracks. But there are different shades of gray, that's why it's probably the best to go for what's written on the cover for DJ-mix albums, too. --[[G0llum]]
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">We need a guideline for this, otherwise it will be chaos. --[[User:Zout|Zout]] No, g0llum, I want exactly the same as Schika. Listing the albums with ARs in the album list and crediting DJs/Remixers as a main artists are two separate things. Of course this listing doesn't have to be implemented at the same time as SG5DisasterRelief. I just think that having albums by ''Artist'' remixed by various artists in the same section as VA albums remixed by ''Artist'' is not very good solution. (Btw, can we move this discussion to the mailing list? It looks like a start of nice flame-war :) ) --[[Lu Kz|LuKz]]  
 
</ul>
 
</ul>I contacted Tarragon yesterday and explained the situation and that we probably need guidelines for this. For the Kruder & Dorfmeister example they are really credited for the work, they remixed all the tracks, not just did DJ-mixing and compiling. Discogs says about artists: "This refers to the main credited artist for the release." - I think this is the best description for it. Always use the artist that is clearly credited for it - mostly you can go by cover for this. Typical examples for DJ-mix artists: [http://www.cover-paradies.to/?fCall=ShowImage&vId=92238&vType=Front http://www.cover-paradies.to/?fCall=ShowImage&vId=92238&vType=Front] - here it has the mix artist on the cover. On other similar releases they only mention them on the back cover. I don't think they should be the credited artist because this is minor work but that has to be decided by the style council. On the summit we agreed that it is only good to take as much albums as possible out of the unobserved VA area. --[[User:Shepard|Shepard]]
 
</ul>
 
  
----
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'''Convert to multiple artists''' asks for changes to the release as well as the track artists.
 +
<dt>Tagger and Libraries
 +
<dd>
 +
  
 +
[[Tune Pimp|TunePimp]] was changed to reflect the changes shown above.
 
   
 
   
  
Looks very good to me. Though I did notice two issues:
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[[Picard Tagger|PicardTagger]] was changed to reflect the server code changes. Further, 2 new naming variables <code>%albumartist</code> and <code>%albumartistsortname</code> were added.
 
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</dl>
* These VA albums with primary artists are neither VA or single artists, they are both (to varying degrees). Obviously some people would want them to be one way rather than the other. If people don't have a way to specify this in the tagger (I suggest "Album Artists: always use, never use, ask each time" and allowing easy manual overrides on a case-by-case basis) then you're asking for big arguments about when this applies and when it doesn't. If people have the option then generally 'more info' would always be better.
 
 
 
* When you convert an album to various artists, so that you can assign it an album artist, if you don't first convert at least one track to a different artist before moving it to the single artist, it starts acting like a single artist album again and I can't see a way to change a track. I don't know whether this is a bug or interface issue or intentional behaviour.
 
 
 
(also the 'move tracks' checkbox is confusing as previously noted)
 
 
 
* just thought of a third, somewhat related issue. Since this appears to be sanctioning quasi-'artists' such as 'Queen and David Bowie' it would be nice if there was a third option on the edit artist screen as they are not really a 'person' or a 'group', perhaps 'collaboration' would be appropriate?
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Of course they are a group: one person -> Person, several persons -> Group. --[[User:Shepard|Shepard]]  
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">I'm really not sure if that reply is a drily humerous joke or not. "Q: What groups has Neil Young been in?" "A: Well he once waited in line for a bus, ..."
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Pardon? It was a serious answer and absolutly fits to your comment above. Collaborations are groups as they consist of more than one person.
 
</ul>
 
</ul>
 
</ul>
 
 
 
* final comment: is it worth linking to the various test edits from here, or can someone run a query on the test server later and return all VA albums with a primary artist? I think it will often be self explanatory what's going on from the data so the latter should do if it is possible.  -- [[User:bawjaws|bawjaws]]
 
  
[[Category:To Be Reviewed]] [[Category:Open Style Issue]] [[Category:Development]]
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[[Category:History]]

Latest revision as of 16:25, 25 October 2011

Subject: These are the steps to solve the major problem of StyleGuideline 5 (FeaturingArtistStyle) which has been implemented in the 2006-01-08 Server Update. We are not completly GettingRidOfFeaturingArtistStyle. In the medium term it can be made more acceptable via interface changes like the ArtistPageRedesign. A more detailed solution should come along with the NextGenerationSchema in the long term.

The changes are as follows:

  1. Allow releases with various TrackArtists but which are attributed to one artist to be moved to this ReleaseArtist.
  2. Change the text of the FeaturingArtistStyle to state: "If two or more equally primary artists perform on a track, create a collaboration artist for them and attach the track to it. This has been done. See the HistoryOfFeaturingArtistStyle for the old guideline.

Note, that the use of "feat." is still valid for guest performing artists.

HowTo

  • Queen and David Bowie are main artists of the track Under Pressure on the Queen release Hot Space. The changes that need to be done to reflect this situation while keeping the ReleaseArtist Queen are as follows: # Click on Show artists # Click on (Change) for the track artist of Under Pressure. # Change the track artist to "Queen & David Bowie"

Release Examples

  • The release The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is nearly completly by Howard Shore except the last track which is by Enya. You could move the release to Howard Shore. This would have the following consequences:
    • The release appears in the discography of Howard Shore (in one of the main sections).
    • The release appears in one of the VA sections of Enya.
    • When looking at the release you see Howard Shore above it and the correct artist listed for every track.
  • The double release The K&D Sessions is added again and again to the artist Kruder & Dorfmeister because they remixed it and so it is attributed to them. You could move it to this artist and it would appear under their releases - but the remixed tracks still show the original artists.

Code changes

The implemented changes (released on 2006-01-08):

Artist page shows releases with
ReleaseArtist == current artist or one or more tracks with TrackArtist == current artist (only shown, if 1 didn't match)
Release page
Track artists are shown when at leat one track artist is different than the release artist. VariousArtistsReleases and MultipleArtistsReleases have a Move link which allows moving them to a different release artist. SingleArtistReleases have a new Show Artists link that reveals the track artists in the display and allows changing them. (Changing one or more artists automatically "transforms" the release into a VariousArtists release. Convert to multiple artists asks for changes to the release as well as the track artists.
Tagger and Libraries
TunePimp was changed to reflect the changes shown above. PicardTagger was changed to reflect the server code changes. Further, 2 new naming variables %albumartist and %albumartistsortname were added.