Difference between revisions of "History:SG5 Disaster Relief"

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How does a compilation with a track by Pearl Jam & Cypress Hill ([http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=306208 http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=306208]) be handled? This collaboration artist only appears twice, both times on a 'real' Various Artists release. At the moment '''and''' after this relief has been implemented those 2 releases won't show up under either Pearl Jam or Cypress Hill. --[[User:Zout|Zout]]  
 
How does a compilation with a track by Pearl Jam & Cypress Hill ([http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=306208 http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=306208]) be handled? This collaboration artist only appears twice, both times on a 'real' Various Artists release. At the moment '''and''' after this relief has been implemented those 2 releases won't show up under either Pearl Jam or Cypress Hill. --[[User:Zout|Zout]]  
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Yes that is correct. There will, however, be an [[Advanced Relationship|AdvancedRelationship]] that states that both Pearl Jam and Cypress Hill collaborated on "Pearl Jam & Cypress Hill". These [[Advanced Relationship Type|AdvancedRelationshipType]]<code><nowiki></nowiki></code>s will be presented more prominently in the upcoming [[Artist Page Redesign|ArtistPageRedesign]]. --[[User:DonRedman|DonRedman]]  
 
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Yes that is correct. There will, however, be an [[Advanced Relationship|AdvancedRelationship]] that states that both Pearl Jam and Cypress Hill collaborated on "Pearl Jam & Cypress Hill". These [[Advanced Relationship Type|AdvancedRelationshipType]]<code><nowiki></nowiki></code>s will be presented more prominently in the upcoming [[Artist Page Redesign|ArtistPageRedesign]]. --[[User:DonRedman|DonRedman]]  
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<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">So all of a sudden *all* objections to the [[Featuring Artist Style Alternative|FeaturingArtistStyleAlternative]] are gone? I suggest you mention this before making this official, otherwise there will be problems. --[[User:Zout|Zout]]
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Revision as of 11:15, 22 December 2005

Subject: These are the plans to solve the major problem of StyleGuideline 5 (FeaturingArtistStyle) which are to be implemented in the short term. So we are not completly GettingRidOfFeaturingArtistStyle. In the medium term it can be made more acceptable via interface changes like the ArtistPageRedesign. A more detailed solution should come along with the NextGenerationSchema in the long term.

The plans are as follows:

  1. Allow albums with various artists on the tracks but which are attributed to one artist to be moved to this artist.
  2. Change the StyleGuideline like this: "If two or more primary artists perform on a track, create a collaboration artist for them and attach the track to it." (this is roughly the FeaturingArtistStyleAlternative) Note, that the use of "feat." will still be valid for guest performing artists.

Code changes

The first part requires code changes such that:

  • When listing tracks of an album, the TrackArtists will only be shown if one or more tracks have a TrackArtist != AlbumArtist.
  • Albums which have VariousArtists as AlbumArtist (that is which are VariousArtistAlbums currently) get a Move link which allows moving them to a different AlbumArtist.
  • Probably we have to adjust the tagger libs a bit for this.
  • Each album with only one distinct track artist will now have a Show Artists link that will show the each of the artists and the associated Change links that lets the user quickly change one track artist.
  • The option to Convert to multiple artists will ask
    • what to do with the AlbumArtist (set Various Artists as album artist or leave old album artist) and
    • what to do with the TrackArtists (leave old artist for all tracks or move tracks to new artists)

The code changes will be open for testing on the test server before being released. Also the changes will be further announced (especially important for the customers) and subject to BetaEditing.

Examples

  • The Queen albums which are attributed to Queen on the cover and have all tracks by Queen except one which is by "Queen & David Bowie" are changed in the following way:
    • Simple method
      1. Klick on "Show artists"
      2. Klick on "(Change)" for the TrackArtist that you want to change
      3. Change the TrackArtist of the one track to a newly created collaboration "Queen & David Bowie"
    • Complicated method (old) (should this not be deleted?)
      1. Convert the album to VariousArtists
      2. Change the TrackArtist of the one track to a newly created collaboration "Queen & David Bowie"
      3. Move the album to the artist Queen
  • Alert.png You have to un-check "Move Tracks to Album Artist", such that only the Album Artist is affected by the Move, but not the Tracks.

This is a bit work but the result should be acceptable for everyone. ;)

  • The album The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is nearly completly by Howard Shore except the last track which is by Enya. You could move the album to Howard Shore. This would have the following consequences:
    • The album appears in the discography of Howard Shore (in one of the main sections).
    • The album appears in one of the VA sections of Enya.
    • When looking at the album you see Howard Shore above it and the correct artist listed for every track.
  • The double album The K&D Sessions is added again and again to the artist Kruder & Dorfmeister because they remixed it and so it is attributed to them. You could move it to this artist and it would appear under their albums - but the remixed tracks still show the original artists.

Editing

As you can see in some cases you'd need several atomic edits until you are where you want to be with an album (convert to VA, change track artist, move to SA). Therefore it's recommended to add notes with exhaustive explanations to the edits and links to each other. Also as some of the changes do not appear under subscribable artists you might want to tell people to vote on those changes if you are not an AutoModerator so that they won't fail and you can go on with the work on it.

Discussion

How does a compilation with a track by Pearl Jam & Cypress Hill (http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=306208) be handled? This collaboration artist only appears twice, both times on a 'real' Various Artists release. At the moment and after this relief has been implemented those 2 releases won't show up under either Pearl Jam or Cypress Hill. --Zout


When moving a VA release to a AlbumArtist, there is the option "Move Tracks to Album Artist", which actually is the same as "Convert to single artist". I suggest removing this option, as it is counter-intuitive. Instead of the check box, there can be a text saying something like "If you want all tracks to be by the same artist, you need to Convert to single artist instead". --Zout 

If I understand correctly, the AlbumArtist on a release is set for releases that are e.g. Greatest Hits by a single artist, but that have one or more tracks on it that are collaborations or maybe by a member of the group. Also, for DJ-Mixes, the DJ Mixer should be the 'main artist'. Should be, at the same time, forbid the use of '(Mixed by ...)' in ReleaseTitles? This can now be captured by adding a DJ-Mix AR and changing the 'main' artist. Any more cases? -Zout 
  • I'd say DJ-mixes should be regular VA albums, not under DJ as a main artist. --LuKz (For typical DJ-Mix albums take a look at Sasha & John Digweed's releases, also the DE9 series of Richie Hawtin) I agree with LuKz, I suggest to list the AR (DJ-Mixed, Remixed track, Production...) under the album list. The same way as on discogs --Schika
    • Well, your proposition contradicts what LuKz said above. I concur with Fuchs, that we are gradually shifting our focus to be more accurate, and therefore need to write what's on the cover. Actually, we used Kruder & Dorfmeister as an actual example why we need album artists for albums, which can have different track artists. Of course, they did much more than compile the albums - unlike compilation mix artists who do nothing more than selecting and x-fading the tracks. But there are different shades of gray, that's why it's probably the best to go for what's written on the cover for DJ-mix albums, too. --G0llum
      • No, g0llum, I want exactly the same as Schika. Listing the albums with ARs in the album list and crediting DJs/Remixers as a main artists are two separate things. Of course this listing doesn't have to be implemented at the same time as SG5DisasterRelief. I just think that having albums by Artist remixed by various artists in the same section as VA albums remixed by Artist is not very good solution. (Btw, can we move this discussion to the mailing list? It looks like a start of nice flame-war :) ) --LuKz
    I contacted Tarragon yesterday and explained the situation and that we probably need guidelines for this. For the Kruder & Dorfmeister example they are really credited for the work, they remixed all the tracks, not just did DJ-mixing and compiling. Discogs says about artists: "This refers to the main credited artist for the release." - I think this is the best description for it. Always use the artist that is clearly credited for it - mostly you can go by cover for this. Typical examples for DJ-mix artists: http://www.cover-paradies.to/?fCall=ShowImage&vId=92238&vType=Front - here it has the mix artist on the cover. On other similar releases they only mention them on the back cover. I don't think they should be the credited artist because this is minor work but that has to be decided by the style council. On the summit we agreed that it is only good to take as much albums as possible out of the unobserved VA area. --Shepard
    • The guideline could be as simple as The artist on the cover of a release must be used as its album artist. This doesn't affect ARs at all. The ArtistRole can still be specified with an AR. We need to stop seeing the album/release artist as a "main artist", but as an artist string an album/release is credited to.--Fuchs


  • These VA albums with primary artists are neither VA nor single artists, they are both (to varying degrees). Obviously some people would want them to be one way rather than the other. If people don't have a way to specify this in the tagger (I suggest "Album Artists: always use, never use, ask each time" and allowing easy manual overrides on a case-by-case basis) then you're asking for big arguments about when this applies and when it doesn't. If people have the option then generally 'more info' would always be better.
  • I don't understand this. Each track has an artist and picard assigns those artists to the right tracks (mp3s, oggs, whatever). Where do you want it to put the album artist? --Fuchs
  • Albums with identical artists on every track behave as SingleArtist.
  • Yes, this is intended. The showalbum page puts the album artist, as well as the track artists into a bag. if there are more than 1 artist in this bag, then the track artists are displayed. There has been no change in the database schema, because we did this in the most straight-forward way possible. Remove all the references to the Various Artists special case artist and replaced it with the pseudo-code method described above. You have to move one track to another artist first before you can move the album to the new artist. This is all described in the steps above. Same thing applies to the checkbox. We needed the move album moderation to be able to move either album/track artists or both, and we did that - without changing the other moderation types (sac, and mac to be specific) --G0llum
  • just thought of a third, somewhat related issue. Since this appears to be sanctioning quasi-'artists' such as 'Queen and David Bowie' it would be nice if there was a third option on the edit artist screen as they are not really a 'person' or a 'group', perhaps 'collaboration' would be appropriate? --bawjaws
  • A musicbrainz group just means more than one person, it's doesn't mean band nor orchestra nor collaboration nor football team. Roles of individuals are defined as AdvancedRelationships to a group. --Fuchs
  • final comment: is it worth linking to the various test edits from here, or can someone run a query on the test server later and return all VA albums with a primary artist? I think it will often be self explanatory what's going on from the data so the latter should do if it is possible. --bawjaws