Talk:Style/Language/French

Content

CapitalizationStandardFrench > French capitalization standard Discussion

Purpose

This page should hold all discussion about current issues with guidelines concerning French capitalization standard.

Please try to be constructive and only keep objective arguments here ;-).

Related documents

Related document that should be read:

• A discussion during summer 2006 titled Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)
• Related pages on Wikipedia.fr: De l'usage des majuscules
• A page in English written by an English speaker who describes the rules she learnt at school: http://french.about.com/library/writing/bl-capitalizationoftitles.htm

Current issues

Current guidelines are not widely accepted, and in particular the exception A. In result CapitalizationStandardFrench is not fully applied and French data are not uniform: the capitalization may change from an artist (or a release) to another one.

Moreover the GuessCase tool behaviour does not match guidelines.

Also, the sheer fact some editors don't follow the current capitalization guide somewhat question their ability to follow any (updated) capitalization guide (but their own idea about things of course)...

• Shame indeed. Name 'em ! And name those who settled an agreement with them to use sentence case until the the present discussion comes to an end. MLL
  • No, I won't name 'em, and yes, I think it's a shame :-). I don't want this to turn into personal flame. Just wanted to outline this is a major problem, which IMHO question the use of spending time working on this if people are not to follow it anyway. -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Alternately, it could mean only that the rules are too complex and that people don't want to have to use an abacus each time they enter a title. Note that I didn not write "too complex to understand", I only meant "too complex to apply". I understand and accept that I must think hard about what I am doing when I edit in a foreign language (english for example), but not in my own language. If something is so complex to understand that each line I enter I must fetch my Grevisse or even check on a wiki the exact rules, I feel something is wrong. Of course, I could learn these rules, but I would hate learning something so irrational. Oh, and I avoid going against the rules; how? I stopped editing in French. Wow, wording your anger sure makes you feel better ;-) -- davitof 2009-03-30
      • And that's exactly what I'd hate to see: even french people not editing caps on MB for this reason (FWIW I think I'd just let go caps as they are, even if in ugly Caps Everywhere Mode, if we choose too complex an option to remember for my weak brains, too). -- mll 20:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  Don't be too so pessimistic, we may find a solution on which a majority of us agree... :) BTW the issue of guidelines that are not followed is more general than this one and we can't do anything about it here. -- murdos 20:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Solutions

The possible solutions are described below.

Option 0: Keep things as they are

This corresponds to system I Standard capitalization, without rule C of this document.

Rationale (= pros)

• These are the rules which are the most widely used.
• This is our current official styleguide

Refusal (= cons)

• Are they really the most widely used? This guideline is not that much common practice with books.
• Exception A need understanding French to be applied correctly.

• Some other languages are in the same case and French is not easy to learn. -- murdos 16:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • English capitalization as well, IMHO, can't be done without understanding of the language. See the (still unsolved officially) discussions about 'Round Midnight and other cases. -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Exception A leads to irregular capitalization.

• This is why option 2 may be better than current guidelines. -- murdos 16:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Option 1: Simplify current guidelines, use sentence capitalization everywhere

Always use the sentence case and throw the exception. Yet, proper nouns are capitalized. Note: this solution is already used in practice by some editors.

This corresponds to system III Sentence capitalization of this document.

Rationale (= pros)

• The current guidelines are too complex and are difficult to understand, and code in the case guessing application.

• During this summer discussion, the detractors of the current guideline admitted (IIRC) the rules weren't complex or difficult to understand. (TODO: dig the links) -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• They may even be ambiguous (see difficulty to set clear examples below).

• This is FUD (sorry to say). The "difficulties" applied to "sentence case" option 1, and to the proposed option 2. -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• By its simplicity, this option may allow more people not fluent in french to apply the guidelines.

• People not familiar enough with french can't fix spelling, and they may not even be able to recognize proper nouns (eg: Le chemin de Pierre, versus Le chemin de pierre). People not familiar with a language shouldn't edit things in that language without assistance. If they do, they are expected to play safe and do only what they can and have their work reviewed by natives. -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Refusal (= cons)

• Rules are not so complex, this is the CapitalizationStandardFrench page that is really confusing and need some clean-up.
• This would make use deviate entirely from Wikipedia and common usage in cataloging and in libraries. -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Option 2: Keep & extend current guidelines

Keep the current guidelines and add additional rules such as one for symmetry (in order to fix non aesthetic situation like Le Rouge et le noir or Le Cerf, le druide et le loup).

This corresponds to system I Standard capitalization, with rule C of this document.

Rationale (= pros)

• The current guidelines match common practice with books, libraries and Wikipedia.
• Additional rules are needed to fix non aesthetic case.

Refusal (= cons)

• It's precisely the Capital letter applied to common nouns which is humbly considered not aesthetic by detractors of the rules. Adding more Capitals would push the ugliness even further. Option 2 would be worse than current guideline from that angle. (j2)
• This guideline is not that much common practice with books.
• This option seems ambiguous (see difficulty to set clear examples below).

• As this is not formalized yet, and a clear choice of new rules being not made yet, I don't expect it to be "clear" right away. -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Option 3: Use Important noun capitalization

This is a sort of mix between Option 1 & Option 2: the first word of any "important" nouns are capitalized.

This corresponds to system II Important noun capitalization of this document.

Rationale (= pros)

• A sort of compromise

Refusal (= cons)

• Estimate if a noun is "important" is highly subjective and debatable, and depends of the context in which it is used.

Related discussions

Do we need rules that people not fluent in french can apply and why? Should we lower the "quality" (no specific option intended) to obtain that? Who is really aimed with French data?

• I think it's important. My basic knowledge of german, for instance, allowed me to edit some tracks, for a better MB. Lots of non-french took part to the aforementioned ML discussion, and expressed this IIRC. And I said "not fluent", not ignorant, so yes, one needs a basic knowledge of french to identify proper nouns, but it's IMHO not that hard (yes, Delerm is a gold mine for proper nouns :) ) -- MLL
  • I do think the real audience is French (-speaking) people. I don't see the point to have a good MB for French data if there's not enough French editors (and users) who cares. However I think we should have a tidier and more simple page describing the guidelines (and yes this is certainly possible with option #0 or #2 :p), so that you don't need to be a typographic and grammar expert to understand the rules ;-) Incidentally, this would allow non fluent people to do some edits, even if these edits are not always 100% right (it's still better than using CapitalizationStandardEnglish). -- murdos 20:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC) Let people who like french music input some things. They'll be happy doing it as we may be when inputing foreign music we like and for which we don't always master the language. Foreigners who like french music will love Option 1 -- jesus2099 21:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Who really knows if foreigners will love Option 1? There are at least some non native editors who prefer current guidelines... -- murdos 22:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Murdos: you are cheating :-o Nyght didn't say she liked our rules, only that we shouldn't simplify if there are standard rules. I didn't find any clear-cut proof of such a standard in French. -- davitof 2007-03-29
        • Sorry, I couldn't resist... ;-) But I'am bit tired of unargumented subjective and unverifiable opinion. I didn't find any clear-cut proof of such a general thought from "foreigners" either. Anyway I've removed the link to Nyght mail. @jesus2099: as I already told you on you personal page, you should only speak for yourself, not for others... And I've moved this specific discussion (Is guidelines aimed to non native speakers?) from the pro/cons of an option to a new different section in order to have a general discussion: please don't advocate any option here... Thx -- murdos 09:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
      What Jesus said: exactly my opinion. -- mll 03:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

   People with no french knowledge at all are stuck with copying sleeves. The caring editors in such cases usually contact one of us to have it fixed. Such people are not concerned by this. 
   People with some french knowledge are probably in the same case as above, if they can't identify grammatical functions: they can't fix spelling, identify proper nouns, and IMHO are not expected to fix cap - the current practice is that they use sentence case, and contact one of us. They are not concerned either. 
   People with enough french knowledge (enough to understand and identify grammatical functions of the words) are concerned by this, just as we natives are... I don't see how any of the future options described here would prevent such a person from editing. 
   Indeed, I don't see how all this relate to our problem. People who want to edit, please do. If they have enough french, they have enough, if they don't, they contact a native editor (Lapalissade?) - in this last case, having sentence case won't magically make them understand what they do... Am I missing something? -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC) 
  

Voting

So are there any votes to decide on this ? I vote for Option 1. -- jesus2099 12:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Option	Votes	Editors
Option 0
Option 1	1	jesus2099, (put your name here)
Option 2
Option 3

Examples

This section should provide interesting examples and the result with all options.

#	Using current guidelines	Using option 1	Using option 2	Using option 3	Description/comment
0	Le Petit Cheval	Le petit cheval	Le Petit Cheval	(?)
1	Le Rouge et le noir	Le rouge et le noir	Le Rouge et le Noir	Le Rouge et le Noir (?)
2	Le Cerf, le druide et le loup	Le cerf, le druide et le loup	Le Cerf, le Druide et le Loup
3	Le Petit Chaperon rouge	Le petit chaperon rouge	Le Petit Chaperon rouge	Le petit Chaperon rouge (?)
4	Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry	Les très riches heures du duc de Berry	Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry	Les très riches heures du Duc de Berry

• @ murdos: I'm a bit confused by some of the examples. * Example #2, option 2: this is an "extended" version of the symetrical rule, right? ;)
  • Yes, I think we should consider enumerations the same way as schema with et or ou. But I need to describe more this rule, unless you want to do it ;-) -- murdos 16:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

  * Example #3: why would people who want sentence case (Option 1) use "Chaperon" (capped C)? It's not a first name... Also, why would option 2 imply a capped "Rouge"? 
  

  • I agree it is debatable, I feel Chaperon Rouge is a kind of proper noun. Maybe I should put "Petit chaperon rouge" or "Petit chaperon rouge"... I'm starting we should use ALLCAPS :-D Maybe we should remove this tricky example. -- davitof 2007-03-29
    • In fact what you call "a kind of proper noun" is also called "important noun". I've added option 3 which corresponds to that, all other options don't use this concept. -- murdos 16:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

  * Example #4: same question for option 2? 
  

  • Different answer here: my mistake. --davitof 2007-03-29
  -- dmppanda 14:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

  I offer you a first basic example (#0) so that we agree first on a simple example. --MLL

  • Thanks! You're right we need to start with simple things. -- murdos 20:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

In parallel: Improve the current CapitalizationStandardFrench page

• There should be an error on lists of exceptions comparing two languages : The A.4 in french corresponds to B in english. Then, all the following exceptions don't correspond and we don't know which exception examples refer to.

• Fixed. -- murdos 11:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Remove duplicated sections (examples & references): it is not useful to have them twice, in French & in English
• Remove statement "(Don't use the former rules which cited Wikipedia as reference but use the exception as general rule)"  :
  1. this statement is confusing (general rule for what?)
  2. according to your interpretation this statement could appear as wrong: the exception should currently always be applied in case of non verbal phrase with definitive articles
  3. we are not doing archaeology: old reference should be removed after some times and it is actually more confusing than useful for new user

• Do you all agree about that? May I delete the statement? -- murdos 20:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree davitof 2007-03-29
    • Agreed as well.-- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Simplify rules: there's no need for a summary + detailed rules
  • rules need no be simple and straightforward: no rationale, no long comment (maybe in a different section or in references), no typographic jargon (that is the distinction between Majuscule and Capitale should be ignored)
  • compare with simplicity of other languages: CapitalizationStandard
  • and compare with (supposed complexity of) CapitalizationStandardEnglish - I agree on presenting things in a meaningful way: simple and straightforward rules in a few lines, but down on the page, please keep a detailed explanation, with rationale, long comments, and typographic jargon. The distinction between Majuscule and Capitale is an important one IMO - also a word about quadratin use would be welcome. -- dmppanda 17:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• In references section: "A page in English written by an English speaker who describes the rules he learnt at school: http://french.about.com/library/writing/bl-capitalizationoftitles.htm". HE should be SHE (Laura). jesus2099

Other discussions

• Kudos to murdos - couldn't help ;) - to at last taking the bull by the horns (is that english?). MLL It is :) (j2)
  • Thanks! I hope this discussion will lead to some conclusion, for once... Thanks for your (and others) help! :) -- murdos
  J2: you added this to the "pro" for "simplify": "The current guidelines produce inaesthetic titles with capital letters applied on common nouns (noms communs). It even makes it difficult for non-french to distinguish common nouns from proper nouns (noms propres). Proper nouns are the only words —besides first title word— that deserve a capital letter." --- To me, this just look like an "unargumented subjective opinion". I could as well say that "Sentence case sucks! The sentence case proposed guidelines produce inaesthetic titles. It even makes it difficult for everybody to distinguish the sorted version of the title. Proper capitalization is the only serious way to have this problem solved: sentence case is for illiterate people" - that, as well, is a personal unargumented opinion, and that doesn't help in any way! We are not here to exchange personal unargumented feelings about unjustified tastes, and have the most convincing person win the day. We are here to produce resonnable arguments that would lead to a better styleguide, based on something more than "this sucks!" or questionnable interpretations. If we want to get through this, we need to produce arguments. I hope that explains why I'm removing your statement. Cheers! -- dmppanda 12:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't understand what you say. I said « Proper nouns are the only words —besides first title word— that deserve a capital letter. ». This way of doing is meaningfull and saying this is not equivalent to saying « CaPS SUXXX ». Anybody can see proper nouns in the title. That's all that matters. I don't understand your sorting argument, MusicBrainz doesn't sort considering capital letters here nor Picard. If you want some sorting being done differently than alpha, this is what the sortname is useful for (as in Artists). PS: MLL says it better than me : «...Yet, proper nouns are capitalised.» 07.3.29 2119 ♡MLL jesus2099
    • Le monsieur te dit que ta remarque n'est pas valable parce qu'elle n'est pas argumentée. Sorry for those who don't read french fluently enough, but I believe this sub-discussion was just a misunderstanding and it needed a little clarifying. -- davitof 2007-03-29
      • Here was the argument : « inaesthetism ». And don't tell me this is not a valid argument because it's the one used as a pro for Option 2 : « Additional rules are needed to fix non aesthetic case. » Thank you :D -- jesus2099 22:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Well, it is an argument, but not a strong one IMO because it is subjective. IMO we should use subjective arguments if we can't decide on objective arguments. So we can keep your argument, but we should tag it as subjective. BTW, I don't find SentenceCase aesthetically offensive, but I agree that it can lose part of the meaning of the title, which is an objective argument. -- davitof 2007-03-30
    Le Monsieur dit que:

     * "The current guidelines produce inaesthetic titles with capital letters applied on common nouns (noms communs)" is a very personal opinion, without any argument 
     * "It even makes it difficult for non-french to distinguish common nouns from proper nouns (noms propres)" is a personal interpretation of other people thoughts, without any kind of proof or argument. 
     * "Proper nouns are the only words —besides first title word— that deserve a capital letter." is a damn personal opinion :-) without any reasoning or argument... 
    

We are editing too fast. What about going to the forum or the ML. Jesus2099, still with us? -- davitof 2007-03-30

• Agreed. Here. -- dmppanda 18:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I'll add a forum thread too, hoping jesus2099 will manage to use it. Done here -- davitof 2007-03-30