User:AaronCooper/Classical Release Language: Difference between revisions

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* you should not look at the language of a work's name to determine the release language (Der Ring des Nibelungen is not commonly translated for English releases, neither are the song titles)
* you should not look at the language of a work's name to determine the release language (Der Ring des Nibelungen is not commonly translated for English releases, neither are the song titles)
* character names (in operas, for example) may be translated, but not always
* character names (in operas, for example) may be translated, but not always
* the way the key signature is written out ("in D minor" is English and this would change if it were a French or German release)
* the way the key signature is written out ("in D minor" is English and this would change if it were a French or German release)

==Discussion==

I cannot disagree more with this. [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] has a clearly defined function and meaning - if you need something new/different for Classical releases, then have a new extension in the database, but don't misuse an existing feature. Most people arguing for this I've heard about where clueless about the use of [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] anyhow, which I find pretty symptomatic. Reasons why having a new rule for classical releases about [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] is bad:
* create (yet another) discrepancy in the database between Classical and Non Classical: actually, if this would be used, I would definitely object against having Erik Satie or Gerschwin assimilated as "Classical"
* would you really argue that setting [http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/?releaseid=105676 this release] to english makes ''any'' sense? How would you handle the massive amounts of such "corner cases" where there is almost no "functional" (or "localized" in your definition) elements?
** That release is a mess and should choose either French of English. If English, the track titles will need to be translated. If French the release title will need to be translated. I don't why in the world that release's title is in a different language than the track titles. -[[User:AaronCooper|AaronCooper]]
*** That release is '''not''' a mess and I will vote no on any '''clueless''' attempt at "fixing" it. The track titles '''mustn't be translated''', and no label right in their mind would ever do that, and no, the release title mustn't be translated either (why would you do that?) - though, certainly, if you actually know anything about Satie, feel free to enhance the style if there is something to be done on that front. Now, I am curious what exactly you think is a mess in it - the French cap and spacing style? the fact Satie track titles are never translated (at least very rarely)? -- [[User:dmppanda|dmppanda]] 09:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
**** I called it a "mess" only because the release title is in English and the track titles were in French. This makes no sense (to me) and it has been a constant practice (for me and others) to "fix" classical releases by choosing one language and either translating the track titles of release title. I see no harm in having a French release title on that album you linked to - the track titles are already in French. -[[User:AaronCooper|AaronCooper]]
***** I find this quite disturbing :-) There is definitely no such release going by the name "Œuvres pour piano", so why would you want to actually have one? If I owned it, I would definitely search for it as "Piano Works", and I would definitely expect the titles to be in French (eg: the language used on the sleeve, and on *any* decent edition of Satie's works). This is absolutely not specific to classical. There are many releases called "Le Meilleur de X" for (say) English artists (with English track titles) and I would clearly refuse any attempt made at changing the title to "The Best Of X". As for translating the titles themselves into English... again, why? This totally contradict everything MB - [[Artist Intent|ArtistIntent]], consistency with the sleeves, etc. Transliteration is one thing, *this* is entirely another one. As you're stating doing such changes are common practice for you and others, and as I don't see anything in our documentation stating that we should do that, I would really suggest that you speak about that on the MLs and have it officialized. -- [[User:dmppanda|dmppanda]] 13:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

* apparently you're suggesting that the "release language" should describe the language used by the functional elements, which is actually the only part of the titles that can be mechanically identified and recognized, while the language of the title themselves is the only part that *can't* (hence your suggestion would turn a useful piece of information into a useless one)
* what would actually be the benefits of this new definition? I can't see any...

-- [[User:dmppanda|dmppanda]] 13:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

dmppanda: While I understand your points, the problem is that, unlike just about any other work type, classical does end up with inherently "mixed" language titles, between Italian for tempos, Italian or German (normally) for work titles, librettos, and opera titles, and then CSG- or [[Opera Stye|OperaStye]]-specified "Act", "Scene", instruments, etc. The edit referenced above, [http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7784460 http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7784460] was a perfect example of the "basically nothing functional left" case. All this is rarely, if ever, true for non-classical, where work titles and such are as the artist named them, rather than per a common naming formula, as with CSG. -- [[Brian Schweitzer|BrianSchweitzer]] 01:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Yes, I agree about what the problem is - what I don't agree with is the proposed solution :-) - my question was and is still: what are the advantages in setting the language to that of the functional parts instead of the titles? -- [[User:dmppanda|dmppanda]] 09:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">If we set the release language to the "titles" it would be useless because commonly the "titles" are not transalted.
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">So, you are actually arguing that [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] is entirely useless in [[MusicBrainz]], which I definitely disagree with: the [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] is clearly and definitely helpful in identifying in what language the titles are written. The fact they "get translated" or not is totally irrelevant (in most music genre, "the titles are not translated" <- this is not specific to Classical you know :-) )
</ul>Consider "Der Ring des Nibelungen" (German) box sets with English packaging, English descriptions, English movement titles like "Prelude" and "The Ride of the Valkyries" and things like "Scene" and "Act". Setting the RL to German is useless because then 99% of Ring sets will be German
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Why on earth would that be useless? How am I supposed to know that "Der Ring des Nibelungen" is German if there is nowhere an indication about that? In 99% of the cases, the release type will be set to "Album" as well - does this means this is a useless piece of information? I don't think so.
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">The point is that it doesn't matter what language "Der Ring..." is because whether one speaks English or French, it is known as "Der Ring des Nibelungen". This part rarely changes. -[[User:AaronCooper|AaronCooper]]
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Err... :-) Trying to rephrase it once again: it *does* matter. A lot. Knowing in what language is "Der Ring..." is actually the main reason why we had a [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] entry in the first place :-) Like I said, the fact it "doesn't change" over successive "editions" is entirely irrelevant. It's still in German :-) - by solving your problem that way (eg: describing the language used in functional elements using the [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] entry), you are loosing a piece of information which is important, making this a non-acceptable solution unfortunately... -- [[User:dmppanda|dmppanda]] 16:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Sounds like we have opposing opinions. You argue that, in determining the release language, unchanging elements are relevant while I argue they are not. Perhaps we should consult with the Style mailing list to see what other editors think. -[[User:AaronCooper|AaronCooper]]
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>and all the subtle differences that we actually care about will not be recognizable.
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Yes, I certainly understand that you miss a piece of information. My position still is: borking another piece of data to have yours right is just wrong.
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">I don't think it's borking things. (By the way guys, SIGs here would make this an easier discussion to follow...) I think it's taking into mind that even though we don't have the ability to do it now, I think ALL classical editors eventually want some way to have generic work lists. Those work lists then would be translatable to any desired language. In that case, the important part of a classical release which we would want to know the language is the mutable part, not the consistant part. If I have "Sonata for Piano" or "Das Rheingold: Scene III: Wer hälfe mir", or whatever, the useful part is knowing if it's formatted in the English manner, the German manner, the Italian manner, whatever, because those are the parts such an auto-translation *would* be modifying. -- [[Brian Schweitzer|BrianSchweitzer]] 05:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
</ul>
</ul>I don't want to read French scene and act descriptions.
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">With Erik Satie, you'll have to read them in French, dot. They are humorous, a mockery of the "classical" description system, and an integral part of the piece titles (hence should not be translated as you pointed out earlier).
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">If Erik Satie has [[Artist Intent|ArtistIntent]], then this wouldn't apply to his releases. People translate real classical works (Beethoven, etc) all the time into countless languages. -Aaron
</ul>
</ul>I thought I explained this above since the point of this page was to explain why we'd do this. -[[User:AaronCooper|AaronCooper]]
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">If you want systematic translated versions of releases, fine - have an AR on it and make them pseudo releases - why not (though that would make an insane amount of duplication, while I tend to think that the translation of the functional elements could be scripted). Now, misusing the [[Release Language|ReleaseLanguage]] and actually entirely loosing an important piece of information (eg: the language in which the titles are written): not fine. In the hope that clarifies my point... Regards -- [[User:dmppanda|dmppanda]] 13:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>

Revision as of 23:48, 27 March 2010

Status: This page describes a failed proposal. It is not official, and should only be used, if at all, as the basis for a new proposal.



Proposal number: RFC-Unassigned
Champion: None
Status: Failed, due to Unknown
This proposal was not tracked in Trac.



Classical ReleaseLanguage

Attention.png This is not an OfficialStyleGuideline, it is merely a place for me to temporarily document the reasons why I argue that classical releases should not follow the ReleaseLanguage guidelines and how we should determine the release language of classical albums. Please feel free to add your opinions and hopefully one day we will be able to convert this into a guideline for classical releases. -AaronCooper Attention.png

A lengthy discussion between leivhe, symphonick, brianfreud, and me took place here: http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7784460

Reasons why classical releases should not follow ReleaseLanguage:

  • the movement names are rarely translated
  • tempo indications are not translated
  • the language of titles of works and movement don't normally change regardless of the release's language

Attention.png Until this is made official (or ruled out), you should not refer to this document to make release language changes, and the only reference on the topic is ReleaseLanguage Attention.png

How to determine the language of a classical release:

  • the release title will usually give hints like the words like "symphony" or "sonata" which change from language to language can be used
  • -- Grammar? I don't get this sentence. :) -- Shepard 13:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
    • * I am not a teenage girl :) It should read: work types like "symphony" or "sonata" usually change from language to language and can be used to determine the release language. -AaronCooper 2007-07-26
    -- What about the language of this release http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/?releaseid=531251 (and many others of classical music)? I have this disc and I see that in the cover says "Catates / Kantaten"; page 3 says "Cantates / Cantatas / Kantaten". The label is French, the performers are German, Bach is German... The titles of the cantatas are in the original German but described in three (3) languages: "pour soprano...", "for soprano...", "für Sopran...": French, English and German. The lyrics are translated to English and French. Other releases include Italian, Spanish and others. Who in this world is able to choose a single language for MusicBrainz??? - Frikander 2007-07-29
    • * In this case, you would not write ALL THREE versions of the titles in the text fields! You would choose one language and set the release language accordingly. So I would choose "Canatatas" and "for soprano" and choose English as the release language. -AaronCooper 2007-07-30
  • other words like "concerto FOR piano/concerto POUR piano" determine release language (English/French)
  • you should not look at the language of a work's name to determine the release language (Der Ring des Nibelungen is not commonly translated for English releases, neither are the song titles)
  • character names (in operas, for example) may be translated, but not always
  • the way the key signature is written out ("in D minor" is English and this would change if it were a French or German release)