User:AaronCooper/Classical Release Language

Classical ReleaseLanguage

This is not an OfficialStyleGuideline, it is merely a place for me to temporarily document the reasons why I argue that classical releases should not follow the ReleaseLanguage guidelines and how we should determine the release language of classical albums. Please feel free to add your opinions and hopefully one day we will be able to convert this into a guideline for classical releases. -AaronCooper

A lengthy discussion between leivhe, symphonick, brianfreud, and me took place here: http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7784460

Reasons why classical releases should not follow ReleaseLanguage:

• the movement names are rarely translated
• tempo indications are not translated
• the language of titles of works and movement don't normally change regardless of the release's language

Until this is made official (or ruled out), you should not refer to this document to make release language changes, and the only reference on the topic is ReleaseLanguage

How to determine the language of a classical release:

• the release title will usually give hints like the words like "symphony" or "sonata" which change from language to language can be used

• -- Grammar? I don't get this sentence. :) -- Shepard 13:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
  • * I am not a teenage girl :) It should read: work types like "symphony" or "sonata" usually change from language to language and can be used to determine the release language. -AaronCooper 2007-07-26
  -- What about the language of this release http://musicbrainz.org/show/release/?releaseid=531251 (and many others of classical music)? I have this disc and I see that in the cover says "Catates / Kantaten"; page 3 says "Cantates / Cantatas / Kantaten". The label is French, the performers are German, Bach is German... The titles of the cantatas are in the original German but described in three (3) languages: "pour soprano...", "for soprano...", "für Sopran...": French, English and German. The lyrics are translated to English and French. Other releases include Italian, Spanish and others. Who in this world is able to choose a single language for MusicBrainz??? - Frikander 2007-07-29
  • * In this case, you would not write ALL THREE versions of the titles in the text fields! You would choose one language and set the release language accordingly. So I would choose "Canatatas" and "for soprano" and choose English as the release language. -AaronCooper 2007-07-30

• other words like "concerto FOR piano/concerto POUR piano" determine release language (English/French)
• you should not look at the language of a work's name to determine the release language (Der Ring des Nibelungen is not commonly translated for English releases, neither are the song titles)
• character names (in operas, for example) may be translated, but not always
• the way the key signature is written out ("in D minor" is English and this would change if it were a French or German release)

Discussion

I cannot disagree more with this. ReleaseLanguage has a clearly defined function and meaning - if you need something new/different for Classical releases, then have a new extension in the database, but don't misuse an existing feature. Most people arguing for this I've heard about where clueless about the use of ReleaseLanguage anyhow, which I find pretty symptomatic. Reasons why having a new rule for classical releases about ReleaseLanguage is bad:

• create (yet another) discrepancy in the database between Classical and Non Classical: actually, if this would be used, I would definitely object against having Erik Satie or Gerschwin assimilated as "Classical"
• would you really argue that setting this release to english makes any sense? How would you handle the massive amounts of such "corner cases" where there is almost no "functional" (or "localized" in your definition) elements?
• apparently you're suggesting that the "release language" should describe the language used by the functional elements, which is actually the only part of the titles that can be mechanically identified and recognized, while the language of the title themselves is the only part that *can't* (hence your suggestion would turn a useful piece of information into a useless one)
• what would actually be the benefits of this new definition? I can't see any...

-- dmppanda 13:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

dmppanda: While I understand your points, the problem is that, unlike just about any other work type, classical does end up with inherently "mixed" language titles, between Italian for tempos, Italian or German (normally) for work titles, librettos, and opera titles, and then CSG- or OperaStye-specified "Act", "Scene", instruments, etc. The edit referenced above, http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7784460 was a perfect example of the "basically nothing functional left" case. All this is rarely, if ever, true for non-classical, where work titles and such are as the artist named them, rather than per a common naming formula, as with CSG. -- BrianSchweitzer 01:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)