User:BrianSchweitzer/Proposal/Soundtrack Style: Difference between revisions

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{{Template:proposal
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">[[Image:Alert.png]] '''''Status:''' This is a [[Proposed Style Guideline|ProposedStyleGuideline]], it is not official and shouldn't be used as such. See [[Official Style Guideline|OfficialStyleGuideline]] and [[Classical Style Guide|ClassicalStyleGuide]] for now.''
|proposal=53
</ul>
|discussion=
|champion=BrianFreud
|rfc=
|rfv=
|status=In development
|ar=
|style=true
|trac=2146
}}


These [[Proposed Style Guideline|ProposedStyleGuideline]]s apply to soundtracks for:
These [[Proposed Style Guideline]]s apply to soundtracks for:
* Movies
* Movies
* Television Shows
* Television Shows
* Video Games
* Video Games
* Theatrical Productions (but see also [[Musical Soundtrack Style|MusicalSoundtrackStyle]])
* Theatrical Productions (but see also [[Musical Soundtrack Style]])


==Basic Guidelines==
==Basic Guidelines==


* A separate style guide already exists for [[Soundtrack Title Style|SoundtrackTitleStyle]]. In summary, the title is the title of the movie, musical, or video game. Additional information is only added if necessary to distinguish between multiple soundtracks.
* A separate style guide already exists for [[Proposal:Soundtrack Title Style|SoundtrackTitleStyle]]. In summary, the title is the title of the movie, musical, or video game. Additional information is only added if necessary to distinguish between multiple soundtracks.
* For music written for the soundtrack, '''Artist''' should contain the composer, not the performer.
* For music written for the soundtrack, '''Artist''' should contain the composer, not the performer.
** Where performer information is available, it should be indicated using [[Advanced Relationships|AdvancedRelationships]]. ''Such music is often referred to as the "score" - especially if it is instrumental.''
** Where performer information is available, it should be indicated using [[Advanced Relationships]]. ''Such music is often referred to as the "score" - especially if it is instrumental.''


* For music from other sources used in a soundtrack, '''Artist''' should be handled according as it would for any compilation. Thus:
* For music from other sources used in a soundtrack, '''Artist''' should be handled according as it would for any compilation. Thus:
** For pre-existing classical music used on soundtracks, Artist should contain the composer in accordance with the [[Classical Style Guide|ClassicalStyleGuide]].
** For pre-existing classical music used on soundtracks, Artist should contain the composer in accordance with the [[Classical Style Guide]].
** For pre-existing non-classical music, Artist should contain the performers.
** For pre-existing non-classical music, Artist should contain the performers.
*** '''Exception''': For "tribute" soundtracks where all the music was previously composed by the same songwriter, see, e.g., [http://www.musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=339952 De-Lovely] or [http://www.musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=92712 Movin' Out], the artist should contain the songwriter and the performers should be credited using [[Advanced Relationships|AdvancedRelationships]].
*** '''Exception''': For "tribute" soundtracks where all the music was previously composed by the same songwriter, see, e.g., [http://musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=339952 De-Lovely] or [http://musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=92712 Movin' Out], the artist should contain the songwriter and the performers should be credited using [[Advanced Relationships]].


* All releases to which these guidelines apply should be given the [[Release Attribute|ReleaseAttribute]] "Soundtrack."
* All releases to which these guidelines apply should be given the [[Release Attribute]] "Soundtrack."
⚫
[[Category:Proposed Style]]

==Discussion==

* How should we handle cases such as [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/eca1f8ea-52af-4e33-959a-12a59e12adab.html The Simpsons] and [http://musicbrainz.org/showartist.html?artistid=1362 South Park], would these go under the category of "Music written for the soundtrack" and be listed under the name of the compsosers (assuming they can be found)? This is especially curious for the Simpsons, who have releases of original material as well as soundtracks for the show. Should [http://musicbrainz.org/album/cdcd30d8-9edd-4a3b-b82a-db7f662b1657.html Go Simpsonic with the Simpsons] be placed under the composer's name and be separated from [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/eca1f8ea-52af-4e33-959a-12a59e12adab.html The Simpsons Sing The Blues] (despite the fact that they're concidered as being from the same artist), or should all the Simpsons releases be changed, for consistancy, including the non-soundtrack releases? ''I think that one of the basic things we need to do is say "what is a soundtrack." There's a basic operational definition in the existing style guidelines, but it needs to be clarified with respect to follow-on and related releases like the ones you mention, as well as compilations of music from several works (these last are compilations, not soundtracks). This gets particularly hairy for some of the anime stuff. There was also some recent discussion of "fictional artists" like the Blues Brothers, which may be relevant here.'' ''Another issue that we need to think about is composer vs. composer&lyricist as primary artist, especially for musicals. There are many cases (e.g. Lerner and Loewe, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Rodgers and Hart) where the composer and lyricist worked together as partners, no different from a musical group where some members sing and others play drums. In these cases, I think that making the primary artist be the composer alone is not what people want or expect. I know that there are [[AudioScrobbler]] users who insist on the primacy of the composer, but in cases such as these well known partnerships, I think that a separate artist for the partnership is the correct approach.'' [[User:Dupuy|@alex]]
* In the light of SG5 and the track artist stuff should we still store the entire score under the name of the composer - even when there are hit songs from a film that are performed by a different artist: [http://musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=105954 http://musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=105954] Should John Barry or a-ha be the track artist on title track?

Having been working with Disney a week or more long. I see serious difficulties with this proposal. Classical is classical. It is handled as it is and I don't feel I have any grasp whatsoever to make a thought about it. However, Disney is "soundtrack" and therefore handled as a soundtrack. The problems with this is Disney songs are often times utlized on various other Various artists releases all over the place. Perhaps I am reading this wrong. But, pre-existing doesn't seem to fit here. More like, these songs were on a Disney soundtrack first, therefore the "opposite" stands. If they are on a compilation after that, they should then all be changed to the composer. We are playing Salmon, swimming up river. For every time we fix one "Alan Menken" there are another five disc's released with A Whole New World, or Circle of Life, or whatever next popular song comes out on a various hit album. Currently, even after Disney is down from 100+ albums to less than 50 There are at least 50 various artists albums with "A Whole New World" on them, and approximately 20 correctly attributed songs. This is just one song I am speaking about. I haven't yet to do a count on Circle of Life, or the other vastly popular songs from the vastly prolific Disney studios. I think Soundtrack should be handled a lot differently. I proposed a change, to attempt to embrace soundtrack and performance artist all in one lump, this at least wouldn't be quite as apparent that this was a broken situation. As of yet I have not seen any true feedback on that proposal. I would ask for a little research to be put into this, or to consider it. I have suggestions, I will take the time with Disney, but there has to be some end in sight, or once more, I am sure not only will Disney never be done, it will constantly be an eyesore to those that are perfectionists. [[User:Nyght|Nyght]]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that most of SoundtrackStyle should just go away. The only time most people look for the composer in a soundtrack is if the soundtrack is instrumental, and in many of those cases the composer is already defined as the [[Primary Artist|PrimaryArtist]] by other style guides. [[Sailor Leo|SailorLeo]]
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">Totally disagree. That may be your main reason, but far and away it's not a universal reason why people would want composer info for a soundtrack. Also, many soundtracks, that composition may contain vocals, and even when it doesn't, for instrumental tracks, it's debatable in many cases that it could be considered "classical", and thus no style guides would otherwise apply. -- [[Brian Schweitzer|BrianSchweitzer]] 01:26, 06 August 2007 (UTC)
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">I'm with "[[Sailor Leo|SailorLeo]]" on this. The guideline says "For music written for the soundtrack, '''Artist''' should contain the composer, not the performer", but no reason is given. *Why* is the composer more important than the performer when it comes to soundtracks, as opposed to pop albums? When someone buys "The Wizard of Oz OST", they are buying it for Judy Garland, not Harold Arlen and his co-writers. Same goes with Julie Andrews singing "The Sound of Music" or "My Fair Lady". In my opinion, soundtracks don't need a specific style at all. They generally aren't classical albums, so the Artist for tracks should be the performer. Soundtracks should generally continue to be listed as [[Various Artist|VariousArtist]] releases, with the bulk of the MBz information coming directly from record sleeves. Where the only info for performer is "Original Cast", then I would allow that composers or their orchestras could be listed, but I would argue that an encyclopaedia of music releases should primarily mirror the records people own, and not be the preserve of people who delight in changing standard data into something esoteric and unfriendly. Each day, correct artists are having their performances nullified by over-zealous auto-editors that don't seem to know the difference between a guideline, a rule, and common sense. --[[Arty Smokes|ArtySmokes]]
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">I've posted comments on [http://www.nabble.com/The-Hills-are-Alive-with...-%28The-Great-Soundtrack-Debate%29-tf4479014s2885.html#a12783669 the mailing list], don't really want to repeat them here again, although I will note that whether people buy soundtracks for Judy Garland or Julie Andrews, the fact remains that they only perform '''some''' of the songs on those albums, while the composers were responsible for all of them. One problem I see is that there are a lot of overlapping genres that fall in the general category of soundtracks. Thinking that splitting this (and [[Soundtrack Title Style|SoundtrackTitleStyle]]) up would help, I created [[Musical Soundtrack Style|MusicalSoundtrackStyle]] and [[Game Soundtrack Style|GameSoundtrackStyle]] as trials. I'm not sure this is quite the right approach, though, as it leads to a lot of duplication. However, I think it does lead to simpler guidelines than trying to come up with one that handles all the different types (scores, anime/games, musicals, TV/films) with the same set of guidelines. [[User:Dupuy|@alex]]
</ul>
</ul>OK. SoundtrackStyle doesn't have to be disregarded entirely, but I would like to add certain guidelines, in order to prevent the current set from being foisted upon all soundtrack albums. Primarily, I'm of the opinion that *scores* can take a style akin to the CSG, but where singers (e.g. Julie Andrews, Judy Garland) are clearly listed as performers on the sleeves of records, they should be listed in the Artist field on a per-track basis. It would be acceptable for me to use the composers (musical *and* lyrical) as [[Track Artist|TrackArtist]] on songs for which the performers are unclear or listed simply as "Original Cast". It would be wrong to list most OST albums as being by one [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]], as by their very nature they are a collaborative effort. Bringing up the topic on the mailing list has, I hope, given pause to the practise of some editors whom have tried to apply the current guidelines to all soundtracks, when they should really be treated on a case-by-case basis. Certainly, Change Artist edits should be put to the vote/discussion before being applied, and it would be good practice to immediately add performance/composition ARs, to prevent data loss. -[[Arty Smokes|ArtySmokes]]
</ul>

For a discussion who to use for the track and release artist of the soundtrack to the movie [http://musicbrainz.org/release/129b7f45-2e16-43ba-9468-b5302a5c6ed1.html One From the Heart] see [http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=7883473 edit #7883473]. -[[User:MClemo|MClemo]]

It looks to me like [[Musical Soundtrack Style|MusicalSoundtrackStyle]] and SoundtrackStyle overlap and should be merged. See also [[Soundtrack Title Style|SoundtrackTitleStyle]]. -- [[User:JimDeLaHunt|JimDeLaHunt]] 2008-01-05
* Oh! Reading the above discussion more closely, I see that [[User:Dupuy|@alex]], "Thinking that splitting this (and [[Soundtrack Title Style|SoundtrackTitleStyle]]) up would help, ...created [[Musical Soundtrack Style|MusicalSoundtrackStyle]] and [[Game Soundtrack Style|GameSoundtrackStyle]] as trials." -- [[User:JimDeLaHunt|JimDeLaHunt]] 2008-01-08

I'd like to highlight the issue of setting the [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] of a soundtrack to the composer (e.g. Richard Rodgers) as opposed to a well-known composer-lyricist group if it exists (e.g. Rodgers & Hammerstein, Rodgers & Hart). Compare
* the [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/346448f5-25a0-4f78-bbd6-acc0205f7513.html?short=0&compact=&mbt=0 list of Releases], including some 50 famous soundtracks and 30 compilations, for which [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] is [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/346448f5-25a0-4f78-bbd6-acc0205f7513.html Richard Rodgers].
* the [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/fe993e5b-1185-40bf-a921-69cc49d81270.html?short=0&compact=&mbt=0 list of Releases], including some 7 famous soundtracks and 14 compilations, for which [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] is [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/fe993e5b-1185-40bf-a921-69cc49d81270.html Richard Rodgers & Oscar Hammerstein II].
* the [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/28a1a2c8-f86c-4497-891e-6d241686cd5d.html?short=0&compact=&mbt=0 list of Releases], including no famous soundtracks and 2 compilations, for which [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] is [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/28a1a2c8-f86c-4497-891e-6d241686cd5d.html Richard Rodgers & Lorenz Hart].
* the [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/4b466f5e-4620-4084-8841-3fe4ea38e689.html?short=0&compact=&mbt=0 list of Releases], including no famous soundtracks and about 10 compilations, for which [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] is [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/4b466f5e-4620-4084-8841-3fe4ea38e689.html Sir Arthur Sullivan].
* the [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/cadd5094-fd34-45b2-89f3-cb4d100ed2ec.html?short=0&compact=&mbt=0 list of Releases], including some 31 famous soundtracks, 8 "albums", and some 22 other Releases, for which [[Release Artist|ReleaseArtist]] is [http://musicbrainz.org/artist/cadd5094-fd34-45b2-89f3-cb4d100ed2ec.html Gilbert & Sullivan].

I think posting these examples, and the corresponding Release list links, will clearly illustrate the policy to put soundtracks under composer. On the other hand, it looks like the opposite is happening with Gilbert and Sullivan -- Releases are gathering under the Group Artist, not the Composer. Anyone care to draft some text, or give me talking points for drafting this text? --Jim [[De La Hunt|DeLaHunt]] 2008-01-08.
<ul><li style="list-style-type:none">''Another issue that we need to think about is composer vs. composer&lyricist as primary artist, especially for musicals. There are many cases (e.g. Lerner and Loewe, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Rodgers and Hart) where the composer and lyricist worked together as partners, no different from a musical group where some members sing and others play drums. In these cases, I think that making the primary artist be the composer alone is not what people want or expect. I know that there are [[AudioScrobbler]] users who insist on the primacy of the composer, but in cases such as these well known partnerships, I think that a separate artist for the partnership is the correct approach.'' [[User:Dupuy|@alex]] [Undated comment from 2007 or earlier, copied here from discussion above by [[User:JimDeLaHunt|JimDeLaHunt]] on 2008-01-08]
</ul>

⚫
[[Category:To Be Reviewed]] [[Category:Proposed Style]]

Latest revision as of 14:55, 4 May 2014


Status: This page describes an active style guideline proposal and is not official.



Proposal number: RFC-53
Champion: BrianFreud
Current status: In development


Trac ticket # 2146

These Proposed Style Guidelines apply to soundtracks for:

Basic Guidelines

  • A separate style guide already exists for SoundtrackTitleStyle. In summary, the title is the title of the movie, musical, or video game. Additional information is only added if necessary to distinguish between multiple soundtracks.
  • For music written for the soundtrack, Artist should contain the composer, not the performer.
    • Where performer information is available, it should be indicated using Advanced Relationships. Such music is often referred to as the "score" - especially if it is instrumental.
  • For music from other sources used in a soundtrack, Artist should be handled according as it would for any compilation. Thus:
    • For pre-existing classical music used on soundtracks, Artist should contain the composer in accordance with the Classical Style Guide.
    • For pre-existing non-classical music, Artist should contain the performers.
      • Exception: For "tribute" soundtracks where all the music was previously composed by the same songwriter, see, e.g., De-Lovely or Movin' Out, the artist should contain the songwriter and the performers should be credited using Advanced Relationships.
  • All releases to which these guidelines apply should be given the Release Attribute "Soundtrack."
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