Difference between revisions of "User:Nikki/Recording lengths"

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(There is spoon^wrecording length)
(Favour track lengths from tracklists which are supported by a DiscID)
 
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Since [[User_talk:Reosarevok/Recording_Issues]] is really not helping us decide what to do about [[jira:MBS-2021|MBS-2021]]...
 
Since [[User_talk:Reosarevok/Recording_Issues]] is really not helping us decide what to do about [[jira:MBS-2021|MBS-2021]]...
  
'''Note:''' This page doesn't refer to standalone recordings. They don't have tracks and therefore don't have track length which means the lengths can only be set manually. If you want to get rid of standalone recordings entirely, that's something separate from what we're trying to solve here and is a whole new can of worms. Make your own proposal for that if that's what you want.
+
'''Note:''' This page doesn't refer to standalone recordings. They don't have tracks and therefore don't have track length which means the lengths can only be entered manually. If you want to get rid of standalone recordings entirely, that's something separate from what we're trying to solve here and is a whole new can of worms. Make your own proposal for that if that's what you want.
  
== Should recording lengths ever be set automatically from track lengths? ==
+
== Should recording lengths ever be calculated automatically from track lengths? ==
 
=== Yes - some or all of the time ===
 
=== Yes - some or all of the time ===
 
* [[User:Nikki|Nikki]] ([[User talk:Nikki|talk]]) 10:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 
* [[User:Nikki|Nikki]] ([[User talk:Nikki|talk]]) 10:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 
* [[User:Ianmcorvidae|Ianmcorvidae]] ([[User talk:Ianmcorvidae|talk]]) 10:21, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 
* [[User:Ianmcorvidae|Ianmcorvidae]] ([[User talk:Ianmcorvidae|talk]]) 10:21, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:OliverCharles|OliverCharles]] ([[User talk:OliverCharles|talk]]) 10:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Kuno|warp]]
 +
* [[User:Jacobbrett|jacobbrett]] ([[User talk:Jacobbrett|talk]]) 10:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Murdos|Murdos]] ([[User talk:Murdos|talk]])
 +
* [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] ([[User talk:Hawke|talk]])
 +
* [[User:LordSputnik|LordSputnik]]
 +
* [[User:monxton|monxton]]
 +
* [[User:Hrglgrmpf|Hrglgrmpf]] ([[User talk:Hrglgrmpf|talk]]) 00:40, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC) (but really earlier than this too...)
 +
* [[User:LukasLalinsky|Lukáš Lalinský]] ([[User talk:LukasLalinsky|talk]]) 18:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Mineo|Mineo]] ([[User talk:Mineo|talk]]) 18:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Reosarevok|reosarevok]] --[[User:Reosarevok|Reosarevok]] ([[User talk:Reosarevok|talk]]) 09:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Jesus2099|Jesus2099]] ([[User talk:Jesus2099|talk]]) 09:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  
 
=== No - editors should always enter them by hand ===
 
=== No - editors should always enter them by hand ===
Line 15: Line 28:
  
 
=== Yes, but only when there are multiple tracks ===
 
=== Yes, but only when there are multiple tracks ===
 +
* [[User:monxton|monxton]]
  
=== No, always set them automatically when there are tracks ===
+
=== No, always calculate them automatically when there are tracks ===
 
* [[User:Nikki|Nikki]] ([[User talk:Nikki|talk]]) 10:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 
* [[User:Nikki|Nikki]] ([[User talk:Nikki|talk]]) 10:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:OliverCharles|OliverCharles]] ([[User talk:OliverCharles|talk]]) 10:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Kuno|warp]]
 +
* [[User:Ianmcorvidae|Ianmcorvidae]] ([[User talk:Ianmcorvidae|talk]]) 10:38, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Jacobbrett|jacobbrett]] ([[User talk:Jacobbrett|talk]]) 10:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Murdos|Murdos]] ([[User talk:Murdos|talk]])
 +
* [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] ([[User talk:Hawke|talk]])
 +
* [[User:LordSputnik|LordSputnik]]
 +
* [[User:Hrglgrmpf|Hrglgrmpf]] ([[User talk:Hrglgrmpf|talk]]) 00:40, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:LukasLalinsky|Lukáš Lalinský]] ([[User talk:LukasLalinsky|talk]]) 18:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Mineo|Mineo]] ([[User talk:Mineo|talk]]) 18:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Jesus2099|Jesus2099]] ([[User talk:Jesus2099|talk]]) 09:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  
 
+
== If recording lengths should only be calculated automatically some of the time, when should it happen? ==
== If recording lengths should only be set automatically some of the time, when should it happen? ==
 
 
Vote for both if you like, they're not mutually exclusive.
 
Vote for both if you like, they're not mutually exclusive.
 
=== When there isn't an existing recording length ===
 
=== When there isn't an existing recording length ===
 +
* [[User:monxton|monxton]]
 +
* [[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Reosarevok|reosarevok]] --[[User:Reosarevok|Reosarevok]] ([[User talk:Reosarevok|talk]]) 09:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  
 
=== When the recording only has one track ===
 
=== When the recording only has one track ===
* [[User:Ianmcorvidae|Ianmcorvidae]] ([[User talk:Ianmcorvidae|talk]]) 10:21, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
+
* [[User:monxton|monxton]]
 +
* [[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Reosarevok|reosarevok]] --[[User:Reosarevok|Reosarevok]] ([[User talk:Reosarevok|talk]]) 09:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
  
 
=== ... ===
 
=== ... ===
 +
* [[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
 +
== If recording lengths should always be calculated automatically from track lengths, how should the length be determined? ==
 +
=== I don't care, just calculate them from track lengths somehow ===
 +
* [[User:Nikki|Nikki]] ([[User talk:Nikki|talk]]) 10:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Mineo|Mineo]] ([[User talk:Mineo|talk]]) 18:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Reosarevok|reosarevok]] --[[User:Reosarevok|Reosarevok]] ([[User talk:Reosarevok|talk]]) 09:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
 +
=== Sort the releases (e.g. by status then by date) and use the first available length ===
 +
 +
=== Take the mean average of the lengths ===
 +
 +
=== Take the (rounded to avoid decimal durations) median length ===
  
 +
* [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] ([[User talk:Hawke|talk]]) — Note that the modal track duration will not work if no track duration is more common than the others, e.g. (4:03, 4:05, 4:06, 4:07)
 +
* [[User:LukasLalinsky|Lukáš Lalinský]] ([[User talk:LukasLalinsky|talk]]) 18:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:Murdos|Murdos]] ([[User talk:Murdos|talk]])
  
== If recording lengths should always be set automatically from track lengths, how should the length be determined? ==
+
=== Take the modal track time ===
=== I don't care, just set them from track lengths somehow ===
+
* [[User:OliverCharles|OliverCharles]] ([[User talk:OliverCharles|talk]]) 10:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
* [[User:Nikki|Nikki]] ([[User talk:Nikki|talk]]) 10:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
+
* [[User:Kuno|warp]]
 +
* I’m slightly partial to my [[User:Jacobbrett/Recordings#Mixes|more complex solution]] [[User:Jacobbrett|jacobbrett]] ([[User talk:Jacobbrett|talk]]) 10:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* [[User:LordSputnik|LordSputnik]] (I also think we should be able to select which track time to use, as jacobbrett says. Perhaps use the modal time by default, but allow edits to select the track time to use.)
 +
** I don't think being able to make edits to select the track time is a good idea, IMHO. --[[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  
=== Use the actual length from one of the releases ===
+
=== Take the shortest length ===
 +
* [[User:Hrglgrmpf|Hrglgrmpf]] ([[User talk:Hrglgrmpf|talk]]) 01:05, 13 January 2013 (UTC)<br />If we assume the longer lengths are often due to appended/prepended silence, this makes a lot of sense. E.g. if I have a recording with one associated track of 3 min, and two tracks with 3 min + 5 min silence, I want the recording length to be 3 min.<br />But "modal" is also ok since it is better than the current situation.
 +
* [[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC) - what hgrl... said.
  
=== Average the lengths ===
 
  
 
=== ... ===
 
=== ... ===
  
 
== Other views ==
 
== Other views ==
 +
 +
=== Favour track lengths from tracklists which are supported by a [[DiscID]] ===
 +
* Take the mean of track lengths which have a supporting disc ID. If none, do whatever. [[User:monxton|monxton]]
 +
** +1 -- [[User:Freso|Freso]] ([[User talk:Freso|talk]]) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
** '''this''' too [[User:Jesus2099|Jesus2099]] ([[User talk:Jesus2099|talk]]) 09:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
*** ☞ If this recording is last track on a TOC, favour this time rather than the time of the same recording on a TOC where it’s not last trcak (as this will be longer, padded with silence, to isolate bonus trucks)  — [[jesus2099]] ♬ 06:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  
 
=== There is no spoon^wrecording length ===
 
=== There is no spoon^wrecording length ===
  
[[User:OliverCharles|ocharles]] thinks that abolishing the concept of recording lengths entirely is the way to go, and thus can't really vote for any of the above options because they all assume the existance of this bit of data.
+
[[User:OliverCharles|ocharles]] thinks that abolishing the concept of recording lengths entirely is the way to go.
 +
* I'm not actually ''quite'' sure what you mean by this -- I could see you meaning any combination of: the implementation-concern "don't store this in a database column", don't return it in the webservice, don't display a unified time for recordings, actively discourage people who assert that recordings have an associated time. #4 seems pretty drastic; 2 and 3 are essentially the same thing but for the WS versus the site; and #1 is of course an implementation concern. So, I suppose you mean the combination of #2/#3, which also seems sort of implementation-y -- so, could you clarify exactly what you mean here? It seems like I'm missing the relevance at this stage of the discussion :) [[User:Ianmcorvidae|Ianmcorvidae]] ([[User talk:Ianmcorvidae|talk]]) 10:51, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* I agree for recordings on releases, but before we can do this, we need to improve the standalone recording situation. [[User:Kepstin|Kepstin]] ([[User talk:Kepstin|talk]]) 20:41, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 +
* I agree entirely. Recordings are probably going to be mixes. We can only really make an educated guess at the mix length, and there's no real use for Mix length when we have track lengths. [[User:LordSputnik|LordSputnik]]
 +
 
 +
=== Pull recording durations from acoustIDs, if possible ===
 +
 
 +
It’d be nice to have acoustID (or something) as a secondary support for recording durations, since not all releases have a discID (and this will only be more true in the future) —[[User:Hawke|Hawke]] ([[User talk:Hawke|talk]])
 +
 
 +
=== Durations affected by mix? ===
 +
 
 +
Durations are likely to vary more if we’re adjusting to “recording=mix” instead of “recording is somewhere between mix and master”. Will this change anything on how we calculate the duration? There’s also LordSputnik’s WavePlot which apparently has a trimmed length that might be viable. —[[User:Hawke|Hawke]] ([[User talk:Hawke|talk]])
 +
 
 +
=== Warn for possible incorrect durations ===
 +
 
 +
Highlight (red?) durations of tracks where the duration is too far from the auto-detected one (5 seconds? 10 seconds? Something based on track lengths, e.g. ''n'' standard deviations? —[[User:Hawke|Hawke]] ([[User talk:Hawke|talk]])

Latest revision as of 06:58, 7 May 2013

Since User_talk:Reosarevok/Recording_Issues is really not helping us decide what to do about MBS-2021...

Note: This page doesn't refer to standalone recordings. They don't have tracks and therefore don't have track length which means the lengths can only be entered manually. If you want to get rid of standalone recordings entirely, that's something separate from what we're trying to solve here and is a whole new can of worms. Make your own proposal for that if that's what you want.

Should recording lengths ever be calculated automatically from track lengths?

Yes - some or all of the time

No - editors should always enter them by hand

Should recording lengths be editable?

Yes, always

Yes, but only when there are multiple tracks

No, always calculate them automatically when there are tracks

If recording lengths should only be calculated automatically some of the time, when should it happen?

Vote for both if you like, they're not mutually exclusive.

When there isn't an existing recording length

When the recording only has one track

...

If recording lengths should always be calculated automatically from track lengths, how should the length be determined?

I don't care, just calculate them from track lengths somehow

Sort the releases (e.g. by status then by date) and use the first available length

Take the mean average of the lengths

Take the (rounded to avoid decimal durations) median length

  • Hawke (talk) — Note that the modal track duration will not work if no track duration is more common than the others, e.g. (4:03, 4:05, 4:06, 4:07)
  • Lukáš Lalinský (talk) 18:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Murdos (talk)

Take the modal track time

  • OliverCharles (talk) 10:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
  • warp
  • I’m slightly partial to my more complex solution jacobbrett (talk) 10:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
  • LordSputnik (I also think we should be able to select which track time to use, as jacobbrett says. Perhaps use the modal time by default, but allow edits to select the track time to use.)
    • I don't think being able to make edits to select the track time is a good idea, IMHO. --Freso (talk) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Take the shortest length

  • Hrglgrmpf (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
    If we assume the longer lengths are often due to appended/prepended silence, this makes a lot of sense. E.g. if I have a recording with one associated track of 3 min, and two tracks with 3 min + 5 min silence, I want the recording length to be 3 min.
    But "modal" is also ok since it is better than the current situation.
  • Freso (talk) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC) - what hgrl... said.


...

Other views

Favour track lengths from tracklists which are supported by a DiscID

  • Take the mean of track lengths which have a supporting disc ID. If none, do whatever. monxton
    • +1 -- Freso (talk) 17:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
    • this too Jesus2099 (talk) 09:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
      • ☞ If this recording is last track on a TOC, favour this time rather than the time of the same recording on a TOC where it’s not last trcak (as this will be longer, padded with silence, to isolate bonus trucks) — jesus2099 ♬ 06:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no spoon^wrecording length

ocharles thinks that abolishing the concept of recording lengths entirely is the way to go.

  • I'm not actually quite sure what you mean by this -- I could see you meaning any combination of: the implementation-concern "don't store this in a database column", don't return it in the webservice, don't display a unified time for recordings, actively discourage people who assert that recordings have an associated time. #4 seems pretty drastic; 2 and 3 are essentially the same thing but for the WS versus the site; and #1 is of course an implementation concern. So, I suppose you mean the combination of #2/#3, which also seems sort of implementation-y -- so, could you clarify exactly what you mean here? It seems like I'm missing the relevance at this stage of the discussion :) Ianmcorvidae (talk) 10:51, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree for recordings on releases, but before we can do this, we need to improve the standalone recording situation. Kepstin (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree entirely. Recordings are probably going to be mixes. We can only really make an educated guess at the mix length, and there's no real use for Mix length when we have track lengths. LordSputnik

Pull recording durations from acoustIDs, if possible

It’d be nice to have acoustID (or something) as a secondary support for recording durations, since not all releases have a discID (and this will only be more true in the future) —Hawke (talk)

Durations affected by mix?

Durations are likely to vary more if we’re adjusting to “recording=mix” instead of “recording is somewhere between mix and master”. Will this change anything on how we calculate the duration? There’s also LordSputnik’s WavePlot which apparently has a trimmed length that might be viable. —Hawke (talk)

Warn for possible incorrect durations

Highlight (red?) durations of tracks where the duration is too far from the auto-detected one (5 seconds? 10 seconds? Something based on track lengths, e.g. n standard deviations? —Hawke (talk)