User talk:Kuno/Style/Titles

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< User talk:Kuno
Revision as of 02:14, 9 December 2009 by 99.243.33.163 (talk) (Titles: Tweaking the example)

General

With so many commonly referenced guidelines consolidated, it'll become somewhat difficult to reference them. Even something like "Expand abbreviations (aka: Abbreviation Style)" would make referencing them far simpler, as well as making past edit notes which referenced those guidelines easier to follow as we move into the future and new editors come in (ones who've never seen the now-defunct guideline wiki pages). BrianFreud

Titles

These should likely be hyperlinked down to the subsections below for ease of navigation. BrianFreud

That would seem redundant to me as there is a TOC which already contains all (and more) of those links. The TOC can be hidden with "__NOTOC__" written into the article, but I think it adds value on a long page such as this. --navap 00:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
The bit I find confusing, or perhaps the better word is "redundant", is having the entire text, from "When entering a release..." to "==Detailed guidelines==", visible both in the TOC, then immediately it appears again, but now not hyper-linked. There's no additional text there to add value. Getting rid of the TOC seems detrimental, but what would make sense, and having tested it, it looks improved, would be this... (kind of hard to visualize unless you just edit it in, then preview it). Change the text there from the current, to this comment-inserted version instead:
When entering a release or track title into MusicBrainz, please adhere to the following guidelines:
<!--
* Follow the appropriate [[Capitalization Standard]]
* Expand abbreviations
* Use parentheses for extra information
* Use a colon (:) to separate multi-line parts
* Use a slash (/) to separate multiple titles 
* Use a comma (,) to separate words such as Volume or Part from the title itself

==Detailed guidelines==
-->

Now the text appears in the TOC, but isn't repeated again until the actual subsection (which the TOC is hyperlinked to). BrianFreud

"Use parentheses for extra information" - There's something like 32 different types of parenthesis in unicode; specifying the correct type either through example here, or in the subsection, would be useful. BrianFreud

Expand abbreviations

"The only exceptions to this guideline are "feat." for "featuring" and "vs." for "versus"." isn't accurate. There are other exceptions, such as USA, USSR, and states/provinces/etc (MD, DC, ON, BC, VA, etc). BrianFreud

  • More exceptions: "No.", "Nos.", just about any valid acronym (YMCA, etc)... BrianFreud

Extra Title Information

I left off the following bit from the ExtraTitleInformation page, because it deals with capitalization, and I think it should be moved to the appropriate capitalization standard:

This Extra Title Information must be put in lower case, except for those cases where it represents a proper name (i.e. the titles of a (re)mix, the names of places or persons, etc.).

I would disagree with this; that guideline is common to any ETI situation, regardless of the release's language. Moving it to even the common capitalization standard page would simply split the guideline across two pages, such that the editor now has to know to look in both places. BrianFreud

+1 I also feel some additional examples of ETI would be helpful, or at least a link to (a cleaned up version of) Clarify Extra Title Information.

Use parentheses for extra information

  • All of the interlinking guidance about the ARs that should be used here has been lost. BrianFreud
  • "Additional information which is not part of the name of a song or album should be in parentheses." The important bit here which seems to be lost in this version is that not *all* additional info about a song or album has been lost - essentially, the main focus of Clarify_Extra_Title_Information. Also, I'd suggest "track" instead of "song", to avoid future confusion with works. BrianFreud
  • The Same_Track_Relationship_Type info is missing; the tiny stub guideline Consistent_Original_Data should maybe be incorporated into this guideline as a whole, with the COD aspect of ExtraTitleInformation brought in here. BrianFreud
    • That relationship should go away some time after NGS. If they're identical, the recordings should be merged, if they're not identical it's the wrong relationship to use. Nikki
      • True enough, though if we're going to hold off on NGS-based guideline changes, we ought to bring it in, then remove it when there's no longer the need for it. The COD part, though, remains true even post-NGS, and should not be lost. BrianFreud
  • There's still important value in the links to Versus style, Remix style, CSG, Soundtrack style, etc, esp as they all change the ETI guideline in major ways. BrianFreud

Use a colon (:) to separate multi-line parts

"Use a colon (:) to separate multi-line parts of a release title." - This also applies to track titles, and likely also will apply to works. I'd suggest striking the word "release" here. BrianFreud

Judging from the output in the right column of the "Subtitles" examples this is the guideline being illustrated, but in this guideline it doesn't mention anything about using colons for subtitles - just that they are to be used for "multi-part releases". I believe this is an important point to add, especially with an example like "Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles". --navap 00:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Use a slash (/) to separate multiple titles

Use a comma (,) to separate words such as Volume or Part from the title itself

Since this isn't always true, with the given exception, I'd suggest shortening the subsection title to just "Separate words such as Volume or Part from the title itself". BrianFreud

kuno/Style/Titles/Exceptions

Live Track Style or Soundtrack Style (neither official, but both official de facto), Multi-Track_Movement_Style (not official, but also official de facto as the most current version for either CSG or CSGv2), Opera Track Style, CSG, etc?

Featuring artists

I have moved this example here, because Murdos thought it wasn't in line with the current guidelines (Murdos' comment was moved along with it).

Title on release Title in MusicBrainz
Weer geen clubhit (met Laberinto) Weer geen clubhit (met Laberinto)

NOTE: "Featuring" is always written in abbreviated form, but not translated when a track uses an equivalent non-english word.

I don't think there's any consensus on that point. Murdos 23:29, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
I am just trying to rewrite the current guidelines to be clearer, I don't see anything in there which would require users to translate e.g. 'met' to 'feat.' on an otherwise dutch track title. But if you think that changes the guideline I'll remove it for now, and have it go through RFC/RFV at some point. --warp.
For reference, the only previous discussion I could find on this: http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2009-March/007656.html
How about the entirety of the SG5 debates? Personally, I think "feat." falls into the same category as "disc" - a textual workaround to handle somethi

Follow the appropriate Capitalization Standard

I would strike "by Leonard Cohen"; who the example is by isn't important, and it just makes the text that much longer. BrianFreud

  • "There rules are different" should probably be "The rules are different" BrianFreud
  • There's no mention, currently, of ArtistIntent; "confusion the waitress" may very well be "confusion the waitress", not "Confusion the Waitress"... BrianFreud

Examples

Having all the examples separated like this makes the relevant subguidelines difficult to follow. Moving them up to the relevant subguideline would make the examples and subguidelines easier to follow, as well as eliminating a huge kind of "blobby" section of the page. BrianFreud

I disagree with this, I personally like having all the examples visible together in such a prominent manner. Once I've read the guideline text once, it makes it really easy to refer to this table in the future when making edits, instead of having to wade through the various sections and read the text again. If the examples were added inline with their guidelines then I hope that they remain prominent - although that may not help reduce the "blobby"ness, whatever that is ;) --navap 00:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The "Stand Alone Complex O.S.T." example is contrary to the Soundtrack Style guidance about not including "Original Soundtrack" in the title. The "O.S.T." part is also counter to the abbreviation subguideline in this very guideline. BrianFreud

Punctuation

  • In the examples, · is getting ignored, but, language-depending, it may be perfectly valid. BrianFreud

FeaturingArtistStyle guideline?

Esp. given the chaos that led to the creation / current state of that guideline (SG5_Disaster_Relief), I'm confused - there's essentially none of the guideline here, save the quick mention in "Expand abbreviations" and one example under "Extra information in the title"? BrianFreud

MainTitle guideline?

The terminology definition aspect of that guideline seems to be missing from the page that's all about that particular terminology. BrianFreud

PartNumberStyle

  • Any information regarding multiple parts in a title has been lost, as has the en-dash, and any discussion of spacing. If this page were current, there'd be nothing in the guideline to specify how anything except a "Foo, Part 1" case should be titled. BrianFreud
  • Any allowance for alternate numbering systems, or part-words other than "Part" has been lost. ("These things are usually not changed by SeriesNumberStyle: * Number schemes other than "1, 2, 3, ..."; e.g. "I, II, III, ...", "One, Two, Three, ...", "1st, 2nd, 3rd" or the use of foreign language numbers.") BrianFreud
  • An example of proper capitalization for non-English part-words is needed. Something like "Je pars, partie 1". --fedyakov 18:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

VolumeNumberStyle

  • "Alternative names for volumes may be used, such as Tome, Book, Part, or their non-English equivalents." / "Volume labeling schemes other than "Volume"; e.g. "Series", "Edition", etc." has been lost. BrianFreud
  • An example of proper capitalization for non-English volume-words is needed. Something like "Былое и диски, том 2". --fedyakov 18:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

PartNumberStyle and VolumeNumberStyle

"Note that if the MainTitle of a Release is just "Volume 1" or similar then this guideline should not apply!" and the equivalent has been lost. BrianFreud

SplitReleaseTitleStyle

This entire guideline has been lost; "Use a slash (/) to separate multiple titles" includes nothing of this guideline. BrianFreud

BoxSetNameStyle?

If we're unifying Series, Volume, and Part, and eventually getting rid of Disc #, it seems odd to not also include BoxSetNameStyle here.

ExtraInformationStyle?

You have Extra Title Information listed for replacement, but not Extra Title Information Style.