User:Symphonick/sandbox

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Revision as of 08:43, 10 September 2011 by Symphonick (talk | contribs) (Name)
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Status: Work in progress. Tracking the CSG-works discussion here
  • Checkmark.png structure is already a mess
  • Attention.png What to write about language?
  • Attention.png Opera needs more attention


Name

The name should be recorded in MB as it exists in print from a reliable source, such as a recent urtext edition. Adding to or altering a title given by the composer or publisher should be avoided (see aliases).

  • we will have to make a guideline page with recommended editions, eg. JS Bach: Die Neue Bach-Ausgabe (Bärenreiter)
  • If you don't have access to the best edition, use the best source you can find. The title can be corrected later.

Language

Either For titled works, always use the original language given by the composer. Or Use always the English, Latin version of the work title, if it exists (I think this would be simpler for consistency with untitled works, but to be decided)

  • we've mostly been discussing using the composer's language / original language for untitled works --symphonick 19:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
    • That is generally not a bad idea, I guess, but can be trickier than it sounds… I've seen Spanish composers that worked in England and used mostly (but not only) French titles--Reosarevok 09:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
      • If a work is commonly known in more than one language (or by a non-official name, maybe), should we allow/require users to put the secondary name in comments? (Do we even have comments for Works? I'm not sure) Torc 09:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
        • we have work comments, but this sounds like aliases to me. I belive comments would not be searchable? --symphonick 11:18, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
        • aliases makes sense because it IS an alias, it's named by the composer in one language (most of the time). Title: I Dovregubbens hall - alias: In the hall of the Mountain king --symphonick 12:14, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I think we’ll need to put the english version in the comment just because there are so many english speakers on MB. Compare to how artists have been handled. Once work aliases actually do something, we can revisit that. —Hawke 22:23, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Or maybe display the alias that matches in the search results (next to the proper title, as if it was a comment)? Torc 04:42, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
IMO this is best solved @ UI level instead of introducing another hack. Maybe exactly as with artist; show the English alias in a popup. Or next to / below the default title, as Torc suggested. Ideally the user should be able to select what language to show, but that's going to happen soon I suppose. --symphonick 08:47, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Catalogue numbers

As we currently have no field for catalogue numbers & those are an important part of identifying a work, the standard catalogue is added to the title. If more than one catalogue is used for a work, add the most common one to the title and the rest in the aliases section.

Examples:


    • Should we request the addition of a "Catalog Number" AR for works? Torc 09:27, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
      • At some point, yes, but I believe it is too early. We would need to AR to something, but to what, a catalog? This would mean considering a catalog as a Work, which is not completely wrong in the general sense, but would be including non-musical works in the Works table. Luks said that at one point something like Advanced Properties should be included in the database schema. Those seem better suited for catalogs. DavitoF 09:42, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
        • Yeah, AR was the wrong choice of words, I didn't mean to suggest any kind of relationship. I mean just a field for Catalog numbers, something more along the lines of the Catalog number for releases. Torc 09:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Multi-part works

For works that have multiple parts, the title and catalog number of the main work must be repeated in the name of each one. This makes the work list clearer and avoids a composer having several dozens of works named only "Allegro", which is difficult to deal with. Exceptions: Songs are often published in books/collections with one opus, often with generic titles like "3 songs for SATB, Op. 8". We want that as a super-work for UI reasons, but the works linked to a "collection" should not have their titles formatted as a multi-part work. (I'm not too sure about this, I think it makes search harder and becomes slightly inconsistent, but in any case, to be decided)

    • I'm mostly interested in recording what actually exists in reality, making mb-specific titles should be avoided as much as possible IMO. There is a difference in how free-standing works (e.g. a song) and a movement is formatted outside mb, & I wouldn't want to try to change this. --symphonick 19:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
      • My issue with this is that I've seen releases give "3 songs for SATB, Op. 8 no. 2", "PieceTitle, Op. 8 no. 2", "3 songs for SATB: PieceTitle", "PieceTitle", etc, so the simplest way for people to find the right works when trying to relate their added recordings to them would be having the full "3 songs for SATB, Op. 8 no. 2: PieceTitle". But I don't know what the usual way of doing this stuff is out there and as long as it's not too confusing I'm fine with it (although I like having all pieces included in an opus nicely ordered together in lists of works)' --Reosarevok 09:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
        • I was thinking about when you have "3 songs for SATB, Op. 8" as a "title" of the opus, and then it's "PieceTitle, Op. 8 no. 1", "PieceTitle, Op. 8 no. 2" and so on. Of course we can repeat the generic title: "3 songs for SATB, Op. 8: PieceTitle, Op. 8 no. 2", but I don't think it will help. Only if the composer published 2 works with identical titles in 2 different collections, like "3 songs for SATB, Op. 8: Confusion, Op. 8 no. 2" and "8 more songs, Op. 16: Confusion, Op. 16 no. 4". Likely a corner case; I'd suggest using the comment field when/if it happens. --symphonick 09:21, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
          • Ok, seems reasonable, I think we can try that unless we find it creates problems. Ideally we'd have a view that listed works under its parent anyway, but… I imagine that's not going to happen too soon :( Please change that paragraph a bit to clarify the format that should be used, and then delete this conversation if you want to--Reosarevok 18:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I generally agree with this, but I fear that it will lead to bad merges. I direct the reader’s attention to a couple of Holst works:
Both works include songs of the same title (“The Song of the Blacksmith”, “I’ll Love My Love”) or the same tune (“March”/“Swansea Town”) and could easily be confused. The comment might help with this, but I don’t really see a good reason to treat them differently just because the title is “n songs” —Hawke 22:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Freestanding works published in the same book are not multi-part works like a symphony or a suite. Freestanding works will often have individual catalogue numbers ("PieceTitle, Op. 8 no. 2"), and that's what I'm trying to preserve. (it has happened that they have been changed into movement numbers). If you think it's important, I suppose I can live with repeating the "title" of the book. s/b only books published by or intended as a opus/collection by the composer, no "complete soprano arias" or something. Can you elaborate on bad merges? Since works w. different catalogues shouldn't be merged. --symphonick 09:32, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm got clear on to what you mean to apply these rules. Only to songs for voice and only then if the collection had a generic title? So all songs from "Schwanengesang" or "Trois Chansons de Charles d'Orléans" would follow <collection>, <cat> <no> "<title>"? Same for "Kinderszenen"? Same for Liszt's "Trois études de concert"? How about a titled symphony or suite? --Dkg 04:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
First, I assume repeating the parent work title in the part title is a temporary workaround until we can have it automatically generated in the UI & Picard. A single part work, or a super-work, will be formatted <title>, <cat> until we get a field for catalogues. (<title>, <cat> <no> if the <no> belongs to the super-work and not just one part of it) A part of a multi-part work, like a symphony, will not have it's own catalogue: <symphony name>, <cat>: <part title>. A free-standing work could: <collection>, <cat>: <title>, <cat> <no>. Since the freestanding work is titled and has a cat no, my suggestion was to drop the collection part, if it's generic (not really helpful for identification). But if it only creates confusion, perhaps it's better to always leave it in until we can have a better solution. BTW I assume song-cycles are mostly printed like multi-part works. Titles will have quotes only if the composer used quotes. --symphonick 10:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Opera

Create works for acts, scenes (if needed?) and numbered/titled movements. If there are no numbers or titles, don't add "movements" for anything more fine-grained than scenes. (see "popular excerpts" for how to deal with popular arias & choruses)

Examples

  • Nixon in China: Act 3 "I am no one"
  • Ciclo brasileiro: Impressões Seresteiras
  • Winterreise D. 911: Gute Nacht
  • Auf Flügeln des Gesanges, op. 34 no. 2
  • Lohengrin: Dritter Akt, Erste Scene
  • Il dissoluto punito, ossia il Don Giovanni, K. 527: Atto Primo, Scena I: No. 1. Introduzione

Comment

Use the comment field to disambiguate different works by the same composer that have the same title (or a very similar one). This is useful even if the catalog numbers differ, but required only if they do not differ (or do not exist). Comments can also be used to help differentiate translations.

  • but the translated work should have a translated title, so I don't know if it will help? --symphonick 18:03, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
That doesn't change the fact that if I search for an English title, I might get the two options (original + English) so even if one is in the original language, a bit of extra indication won't hurt.--Reosarevok 12:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
added Carmen, example of a work w. translated libretto but not title. Would it make more sense if the comment was in the same language as the libretto? --symphonick 22:30, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Comments are in English all over the DB, so I imagine English is the way we should keep them for now… it would be possible not to say anything in the guidelines and see how people use it. --Reosarevok 12:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Examples:

Work Attribute / Type

to be decided: should a movement inherit the type of its parent? have its own, different type?

  • I'd rather vote for them always having their own types independently of the parent one, as it will avoid inconsistency and just makes more sense to me, but maybe someone disagrees? Maybe someone would prefer a "Movement" or "Part" type for parts instead?--Reosarevok 18:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Asking editors to suss the type of a part is asking too much, IMO. Work type is vague enough as it is, and the times when the type is immediately apparentl will be the exception. And assuming we get sorting/grouping by work type, these would end up all over the place. --Dkg 04:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm also a little concerned about using too much detail here. Sure, the 3rd movement of a symphony can be a minuet or a scherzo, but what about mvt 1, 2 & 4? I'm leaning towards setting all 4 to "symphony" (& fix the UI issue for the part works). Analyzing the score should be kept to a bare minimum IMO, ideally we just record what already exists in print. --symphonick 10:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Annotation

The annotation field has the same varied uses as in every other work. Some of the most common uses for classical works are:

"Original" title

From autograph or first edition. Sometimes the work has a (slightly) different title in a modern edition than what the composer wrote in the autograph.

  • Symphonie Nr. 1 c-moll, op. 68
Annotation: Symphonie (Sinfonie??) für Grosses Orchester von Johannes Brahms opus 68
  • Goldberg
Annotation: Clavier-ubung...

Dedication

Subtitle

Tempo

Key

Instrumentation

  • Should we also recommend the use the annotation for things like "for guitar" or "for piano"? Only for titled works?--Reosarevok 18:36, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
    • That's actually kind of tough. There are a lot of unnamed works where mentioning the instrumentation seems unnecessary (e.g. Symphony No. 5 for orchestra), and some named works where the instrumentation seems pretty critical (particularly 20th Century works like Cage's prepared piano works, or Xenakis or Ligeti's works. One thing I'm fairly sure of is that this is overkill. Torc 10:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Libretto quote

  • Schicksalslied, Op. 54
Annotation:"Ihr wandelt droben im Licht"

Dramatic roles

"Characters" of operas and similar works.

Aliases

For titled works, use only if the work is known under a different name. (applies only if we keep always original names, so to be decided)

  • IMO it would be weird if we used a title from a translated libretto for a non-translated version. --symphonick 19:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I agree, but wait until people start shouting because they can't read Cyrillic :) I'd add them as an alias, but have (original Russian libretto) as the work comment --Reosarevok 09:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

English aliases for the examples above:

  • Carmen (no English alias)
  • An den Mond D 468 (no English alias - German text)
  • Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben, BWV 147 (no English alias - German libretto)
  • „Wie unglücklich bin ich nit“ K. 147 (125g) (no English alias - German text)
  • Gymnopédie No. 1 (no English alias)
  • Moscow, Cheryomushki, Op. 105 (an alias for the Russian libretto, or translation for English libretto or both?)
  • The Firebird
Minor point, but why change the phrasing for the Satie? Torc 22:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
probably unnecessary. reverted. --symphonick 22:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Special cases

Translated works

--symphonick 22:40, 31 July 2011 (UTC) Translated works should be entered as distinct works, as they need a new relationship (translator) that doesn't apply to the original. They should be linked to the original with the "translated version" relationship and keep the composer and librettist of the original work, plus the translator(s) credits.

Examples:

  • Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben, BWV 147
  • Heart and lips, thy whole behaviour, BWV 147 (English version) (official translation from Bärenreiter) (can we find a recording of this to create the work from?)
    • not very likely. try St. John Passion or something
    • Or maybe the Messiah or the Ode to Joy. The only other example I can think of is Robert Ashley's Yellow Man With Heart With Wings, which is English on one side and Spanish on the other, but it's probably not what you're looking for sing (AFAIK) the title didn't change, and since it's a modern work, it might not provide a good analogy for translations of more traditional Classical works. Torc 08:55, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Have you seen a non-English recording of The Messiah in MB? I think I've seen a German text... I did own a English version of S:t John Passion for a short while, it's probably here somewhere. --symphonick 22:40, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
No, I was just brainstorming what works would be most likely to be translated. I did find something that might fit though: this release on Amazon has a an excerpt from Carmen sung in Italian, and several excerpts from Italian operas sung in German. I didn't check to see if it's already on MB, but it'd be easy to add if not. Torc 06:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Moscow, Cheryomushki, Op. 105 (English libretto) see aliases

Untitled/Generic Works

Popular excerpts from unnumbered operas

ongoing discussions

Transcriptions / Orchestrations

to be decided

Variations on themes and other derivative works

Works that are derived from others, but not truly versions of them, should be linked to the original with the "derivative work" relationship (still to be requested) and not inherit the composer and librettist relationships from it.

Examples:

  • One thing I fear with this kind of relationship, including the general derivative works AR, is the criteria for acceptance. Does the composer or title have to acknowledge the source? How much has to be borrowed? Would it be based on melodic themes only, or would matching harmonic progressions qualify? How about if something like Dies Irae is quoted (although not explicitly acknowledged anywhere)? Would we bother having all masses point at some Mass prototype? We don't need to answer these now, but they will be some of of the issues we face once we start to document this relationship. Torc 10:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)